Done reading PLAGUE by Dr. Judy Mikovits

[duncan]

My suggesting that you may have approached the reading of this book with a bias is hardly rude, and it is certainly not attacking you. It was merely stating what I thought was obvious given the apparent vitriol in your "review". Please keep in mind, Kina, that it is not you who is being "attacked", and Dr. Mikovits is not here to defend herself.

 

[cigana]

How do we explain that ME is an illness of mostly females -- retroviruses are equal opportunity infectors. How do we explain the outbreak at Incline Village -- did a basketball team and an independent group of teachers infect each other via body fluid transmission. And then, how was the infection spread to everybody else. I do have questions about retroviruses and every thing tells me, it's not possible. Even Mikovits couldn't replicate her own findings. There has been a lot of confusing talk about this but really one needs to go beyond Judy Mikovits to find the answers because she is fatally biased.

I am no expert but the idea outlined in the book is that the retrovirus infects many people but essentially lies dormant, until either epigenetics or some kind of immune stressor causes it to replicate. So just because the retrovirus has integrated itself into someone's DNA, that does not mean they become symptomatic.
So for example when we see an outbreak, it is not the outbreak of the retrovirus per se, but the outbreak of some other infectious pathogen which serves as the immune stressor, causing replication of the retrovirus and then immune dysfunction and thus an inability to handle the pathogen and subsequent infections.
So it's only once the retrovirus has replicated that problems occur.
Hormonal disruption is one of the things which can cause the retrovirus to replicate, so that is one example way in which this could affect women more than men.

 

[Undisclosed]

My suggesting that you may have approached the reading of this book with a bias is hardly rude, and it is certainly not attacking you. It was merely stating what I thought was obvious given the apparent vitriol in your "review". Please keep in mind, Kina, that it is not you who is being "attacked", and Dr. Mikovits is not here to defend herself.

It is not very nice to accuse somebody of bias when you have no idea what their views are. I read the disclaimer AFTER I was finished the book. When you accuse somebody of posting 'vitriol' that is a personal attack. I am just posting MY thoughts on the book. Take them or leave them. My opinion is just one of many and really everybody's opinions have merit. I have not attacked Judy Mikovits. I have posted my thoughts on the book. I think members here should be able to voice their opinions. Many choose not to because they are frightened of being attacked. The problem has been and always will be -- when somebody dares to say something negative about Mikovits, they will be attacked and accused of all sorts. Well as far as I am concerned -- ALL opinions are relevant and NOBODY should be put down for saying what they think. This community has been divided enough with this issue. I think that all reviews of the book should be acceptable whether positive or negative -- this is what happens with most books -- some like a book, some don't.

 

[Undisclosed]

I am no expert but the idea outlined in the book is that the retrovirus infects many people but essentially lies dormant, until either epigenetics or some kind of immune stressor causes it to replicate. So just because the retrovirus has integrated itself into someone's DNA, that does not mean they become symptomatic.
So for example when we see an outbreak, it is not the outbreak of the retrovirus per se, but the outbreak of some other infectious pathogen which serves as the immune stressor, causing replication of the retrovirus and then immune dysfunction and thus an inability to handle the pathogen and subsequent infections.
So it's only once the retrovirus has replicated that problems occur.
Hormonal disruption is one of the things which can cause the retrovirus to replicate, so that is one example way in which this could affect women more than men.

Yes but where is the proof of this.

 

[cigana]

Yes but where is the proof of this.

Which bit exactly?
I guess the whole "retroviruses cause neuro immune disease" is far from being proven...

 

[Undisclosed]

Which bit exactly?
I guess the whole "retroviruses cause neuro immune disease" is far from being proven...

The bit about viruses lying dormant etc etc. has not been explained. I think if Judy Mikovits is going to make claims about retroviruses then she needs to back them up with proof. Personally, the whole retrovirus thing doesn't make sense. I am more into the immune system gone awry kind of thing -- I really don't have any definite hypothesis but the retrovirus thing just can't be applied. Have they every proven that XMRV or any other virus is present in a majority of patients -- NO. Look at HIV and the way that spread. Can the history of ME be explained by a retrovirus -- I think not. There is so much research out there that points to other biomarkers. I think when we get stuck on one, not so great explanation, we fail to consider other things. Have you looked at the Lombardi study -- there are many things wrong with it. Did they every explain the use of 5aza and the manipulation of slides. Have they ever explained why they couldn't replicate their own findings. It's all very difficult. I am a believer of the scientific process and there were many studies that showed that XMRV is not associated with CFS. Over and over. Really, you would think that people with ME/CFS having a virus -- XMRV -- would be a cash cow for Big Pharma -- big money there. It isn't something that they would want to quash.

I have questions. So do others. Can we not simply ask them?

 

[Research 1st]

I think Dr Mikovits remains legally gagged Kina with social media or patient contact? I could be wrong.

I believe this was part of her deal to get released? If you think about it, Dr Mikovits didn't write the book and it's not online, it's also 'history', not 'live' info, if that makes sense.

 

[Dufresne]

I think Dr Mikovits remains legally gagged Kina with social media or patient contact? I could be wrong.

I believe this was part of her deal to get released? If you think about it, Dr Mikovits didn't write the book and it's not online, it's also 'history', not 'live' info, if that makes sense.

In her recent interview she claimed she's been spending a lot of time communicating with people online.

 

[Dufresne]

The bit about viruses lying dormant etc etc. has not been explained. I think if Judy Mikovits is going to make claims about retroviruses then she needs to back them up with proof.

She certainly has never had a problem making bold statements without firm evidence. But I like that. Of course we've to take it all with a grain of salt until it's verified. Even seemingly sound scientific studies need to be taken with a grain of salt until they're replicated at least once, and perhaps even after that.

Concerning the dormant retroviruses, hasn't Dr Lipkin found indications of retroviruses in some of the samples he's sequenced? (To be taken with salt too, of course, but if nobody talks about it and its possibilities then what will become of it?). Wouldn't they be considered dormant, or non-disease forming if they are indeed there? And why are they not following up on this? Does he not have an interest in identifying the next retrovirus to infect humans? Or is he afraid of the politics involved, and isn't that what the book is about?

Also, hasn't Mikovits cited the various strains of HTLV's that don't produce disease as examples of "dormant" RV's?

I think there are still a lot of unanswered questions for and against. The thing that bothers me most are not the bold statements, but the science that's not being done.

 

[cigana]

The bit about viruses lying dormant etc etc. has not been explained.

I'm fairly sure this is just what retroviruses do, eg. HIV and HTVL-1. Did you want links to studies?

I think if Judy Mikovits is going to make claims about retroviruses then she needs to back them up with proof. Personally, the whole retrovirus thing doesn't make sense. I am more into the immune system gone awry kind of thing -- I really don't have any definite hypothesis but the retrovirus thing just can't be applied.

Retroviruses cause immune systems to go awry, isn't that mentioned throughout the book?

There is so much research out there that points to other biomarkers.

A biomarker doesn't have to be the root cause, and may not say anything about the root cause.

Have you looked at the Lombardi study -- there are many things wrong with it. Did they every explain the use of 5aza and the manipulation of slides. Have they ever explained why they couldn't replicate their own findings.

I haven't read about this, if you could provide a link that would be great, as that does sound worrying! I haven't finished the book yet, and it's a genuine question on my part as to why we're not talking about retroviruses much here (I didn't follow the research as it came out).

It's all very difficult. I am a believer of the scientific process and there were many studies that showed that XMRV is not associated with CFS. Over and over.

I am only 3/4 way through the book, but Mikovits is saying the strain they were looking for is a laboratory contaminant, because they narrowed their PCR diagnostics specifically to that strain. She mentions how one of the research groups found positive samples when they used a braoder criterion, but did not publish that. There's also the Alter/Lo paper that used the broader criteria.

Really, you would think that people with ME/CFS having a virus -- XMRV -- would be a cash cow for Big Pharma -- big money there. It isn't something that they would want to quash.

Big pharma also make vaccines, which trigger MECFS, which is something they would want to quash, especially if it is via the route Mikovits talks about!

I have questions. So do others. Can we not simply ask them?

Of course, go ahead!

Does anybody have anything to say about the other findings, such as the electron micrograph images of a cell infected with a gamma retrovirus, or the presence of reverse transcriptase not found in controls, or the presence of antibodies?

 

[Countrygirl]

Kina: A retrovirus does not explain ME. Think about that. Judy said in the book:

Retroviruses had documented transmission through sexual contact, exposure to infected blood or blood products, or passage from an infected mother to her newborn child during gestation, delivery, or even breastfeeding. Retroviruses are transferred via body fluids, rather than by a vector such as a mosquito or a tick.

How do we explain the outbreak at Incline Village -- did a basketball team and an independent group of teachers infect each other via body fluid transmission. And then, how was the infection spread to everybody else. I do have questions about retroviruses and every thing tells me, it's not possible.

In the above quote, Dr Mikovits was referring to the transmission of HIV and HTLV and not to the gamma retroviruses. She and Dr Frank Russcetti found that the gammas are airborne and casually transmitted, so the mode of transmission is quite different. They found it is carried in saliva and urine. They have also stated that It rapidly infects laboratories and those who work there.

A retrovirus does not explain ME.

Some 'heavyweights' in science would disagree with you!

Dr Frank Ruscetti, who, as you know, discovered HTLV, the first known human retrovirus, the putative agent that causes hairy cell leukaemia and neurological disease, would certainly disagree with you. As the book tells us, Drs Mikovits and Ruscetti's research discovered similarities between the immune responses to both the patients infected with HTLV and those with ME. HTLV, of course, remains dormant, often for life, until it is triggered by an immune insult such as a further infection and maybe vaccination. This sounds familiar. As for comparing ME immune profiles with those of HIV, Drs Ruscetti and Mikovits found that parts of the immune response was 'the mirror image' of HIV infection.

In Osler's Web, Hillary Johnson describes how Dr Cheney regarded the Tahoe outbreak as a retroviral infection. To paraphrase he said something like, 'If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it probably is a (retroviral) duck.' Drs Peterson and Bell, I believe, also have supported this hypothesis. It may not be mentioned in the book, but I remember that Dr Luc Montagnier made it clear to Dr Mikovits that he approved of her science. He may not be familiar with ME, but, as the co-discoverer of HIV, he probably knows his onions when he listens to a presentation on the discovery of a retrovirus in ME.



]

 

[Undisclosed]

I'm fairly sure this is just what retroviruses do, eg. HIV and HTVL-1. Did you want links to studies?

I was referring to what you said.

I am no expert but the idea outlined in the book is that the retrovirus infects many people but essentially lies dormant, until either epigenetics or some kind of immune stressor causes it to replicate. So just because the retrovirus has integrated itself into someone's DNA, that does not mean they become symptomatic.
So for example when we see an outbreak, it is not the outbreak of the retrovirus per se, but the outbreak of some other infectious pathogen which serves as the immune stressor, causing replication of the retrovirus and then immune dysfunction and thus an inability to handle the pathogen and subsequent infections.
So it's only once the retrovirus has replicated that problems occur.
Hormonal disruption is one of the things which can cause the retrovirus to replicate, so that is one example way in which this could affect women more than men.

I am not saying that retroviruses can't be dormant. I was saying that she hasn't backed up these contentions with any kind of proof.

Retroviruses cause immune systems to go awry, isn't that mentioned throughout the book?

No kidding --HIV is a very good example of that. My own hypothesis related to is the immune system gone awry but not from any kind of retroviral infection. I could be totally wrong.

A biomarker doesn't have to be the root cause, and may not say anything about the root cause.

I didn't mention root cause.

I haven't read about this, if you could provide a link that would be great, as that does sound worrying! I haven't finished the book yet, and it's a genuine question on my part as to why we're not talking about retroviruses much here (I didn't follow the research as it came out).

Back in 2009, 2010, 2011 there was a huge amount of conversation on Phoenix Rising -- we had 3 dedicated forums for XMRV. There is tons of information in them.

RE: 5aza -- http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/why-does-5aza-matter.12588/
RE: The slides from the snarky blogger ERV -- http://scienceblogs.com/erv/2011/09/30/xmrv-and-chronic-fatigue-syndr-29/

I am only 3/4 way through the book, but Mikovits is saying the strain they were looking for is a laboratory contaminant, because they narrowed their PCR diagnostics specifically to that strain. She mentions how one of the research groups found positive samples when they used a braoder criterion, but did not publish that. There's also the Alter/Lo paper that used the broader criteria.

Yes she does say that but if you broaden your scope a bit and look at the work of others, you can get a fuller picture of the contamination issue and the testing she employed. There is probably good reason why the positive study wasn't published. There were too many negative studies and her team couldn't find (beyond chance) any rv's in patient samples that she had previously found "xmrv" positive.

Big pharma also make vaccines, which trigger MECFS, which is something they would want to quash, especially if it is via the route Mikovits talks about!

There is no proof of that.

I really don't want to discuss all of this over again. It's been discussed to death. My thoughts were really about the book which I think contains too much conjecture and what ifs. I was hoping to learn more and from different sources. There was definitely some serious omissions and there are a few things I just don't believe. I know many liked the book and it has had very good reviews. I guess I am in the minority saying that I am disappointed but it is just my opinion.

 

[cigana]

I am not saying that retroviruses can't be dormant. I was saying that she hasn't backed up these contentions with any kind of proof.

We can't reach a stage of proof until we are given the means to get there. As you know, Mikovits lost her job and her notebooks, which makes it pretty hard to carry out the work that would lead to proof.
Part of the contention is already generally well accepted, as Countrygirl mentioned.

I didn't mention root cause.

That's why I brought it up. You said:

Can the history of ME be explained by a retrovirus -- I think not. There is so much research out there that points to other biomarkers.

which seems to be implying that because there is research pointing to other biomarkers, "ME can't be explained by a retrovirus". What I'm trying to say is that just because a biomarker is not a retrovirus itself, that doesn't mean that a retrovirus is not the root cause of the illness.

her team couldn't find (beyond chance) any rv's in patient samples that she had previously found "xmrv" positive.

If that's true it's worrying. I wonder if she has something to say about this.
Then again this is only part of the proof...what about the electron microscope images, the reverse transcriptase results, and the antibodies? These extra pieces of evidence don't seem to be part of the discussion.

There is no proof of that.

There was no proof the Earth was a sphere before there was proof. "Proof" is a tricky subject, I'm not sure we'd get very far in science if we keep using it as a reason not to do any research.

I am a believer of the scientific process and there were many studies that showed that XMRV is not associated with CFS. Over and over.

There are many studies showing MECFS is caused by fear of exercise or child abuse, over and over. It's more about quality and vested interests.

Thanks for the links, looks like I've got a lot of reading to do!

 

[RustyJ]

There are many studies showing MECFS is caused by fear of exercise or child abuse, over and over. It's more about quality and vested interests.

Yep, remarkable how selectively the 'belief in the scientific process' flag is flown. I am sure White and his supporters are supportive of efforts to keep it aloft.

 

[Katherine]

How do we explain the outbreak at Incline Village -- did a basketball team and an independent group of teachers infect each other via body fluid transmission. And then, how was the infection spread to everybody else. I do have questions about retroviruses and every thing tells me, it's not possible. Even Mikovits couldn't replicate her own findings. There has been a lot of confusing talk about this but really one needs to go beyond Judy Mikovits to find the answers because she is fatally biased.

The following taken from 'The Extremely Unfortunate Skull Valley Incident' book:

1984
In the summer of 1984, as we have earlier noted, a construction crew arrived at the high school (Tahoe-Truckee) and installed a new air conditioning/heating system. The new system had an unusual feature: each room was individually serviced by individual intake and exhaust ducts. This meant that the air in a room could be drawn to the air conditioner/furnace, cooled or heated, and then returned to the same room from which it had been drawn. In addition, the windows were all sealed shut and the staff was forbidden from opening them to get any fresh air. An arrangement such as this made it possible to feed a pathogen by primary aerosol directly to the occupants of a specific room, while the occupants of all the other rooms would be spared primary aerosol but would be subject to secondary aerosol.

1985
When Tahoe-Truckee High School had re-opened in the Fall of 1984, eight teachers had found themselves assigned to a separate staff room. In this room, with its windows bolted shut and its air constantly recycled from the newly installed air conditioning/heating system, the teachers became aware of a distressing quality to the air. One of the teachers assigned to this staffroom decided that he would not use his workplace and parked a camper trailer a short distance from the school. Here he ate his lunches, marked his papers, prepared his lessons and took his coffee breaks.

At the end of the school year, seven of the teachers assigned to the small staffroom were ill with a 'mystery' disease which came to be known as CFIDS. Only one of the eight escaped: the teacher who had chosen to keep clear of the room.

---------------------------------

Method of transmission of course depends on the nature of the pathogen. In Scott's book he talks about various well known scientists experimenting with bacteria and retroviruses.

 

[Dufresne]

I realize I'm heading off topic here but I've always had a question with regard to these outbreaks. Whether it's Tahoe-Truckee or Royal Free, how could the spread of such an apparently infectious pathogen just stop at a gymnasium, a staff room, or a hospital? Even if it was communicated slightly wider than this, why wouldn't it spread throughout the entire region?

To me, a total layman, it seems the environment was more important than the human to human contact. Doesn't this favour a toxin, or a pathogen like those that cause Legionnaires' Disease, to be responsible?

 

[cigana]

I realize I'm heading off topic here but I've always had a question with regard to these outbreaks. Whether it's Tahoe-Truckee or Royal Free, how could the spread of such an apparently infectious pathogen just stop at a gymnasium, a staff room, or a hospital? Even if it was communicated slightly wider than this, why wouldn't it spread throughout the entire region?

To me, a total layman, it seems the environment was more important than the human to human contact. Doesn't this favour a toxin, or a pathogen like those that cause Legionnaires' Disease, to be responsible?

The theory I like is that it's mold within those buildings. The evidence is: that would localise it to a building only (and these public buildings are more susceptible to damp), mycotoxins intefere with immune function, some PWC's have improved dramatically by simply avoiding mold, Brewer's work on mold and history of PWC's living or working in water damaged buildings.
I think the idea is, when you've got the bad combination of toxic mold and some kind of bug going around, it's a double whammy.

 

[Dufresne]

The theory I like is that it's mold within those buildings. The evidence is: that would localise it to a building only (and these public buildings are more susceptible to damp), mycotoxins intefere with immune function, some PWC's have improved dramatically by simply avoiding mold, Brewer's work on mold and history of PWC's living or working in water damaged buildings.
I think the idea is, when you've got the bad combination of toxic mold and some kind of bug going around, it's a double whammy.

Exactly what I think. I'm just wondering how those who believe it was just a bug would explain the isolated nature of these outbreaks.

 

[natasa778]

I think the idea is, when you've got the bad combination of toxic mold and some kind of bug going around, it's a double whammy.

What are we to make of this?

 

[beaker]

I realize I'm heading off topic here but I've always had a question with regard to these outbreaks. Whether it's Tahoe-Truckee or Royal Free, how could the spread of such an apparently infectious pathogen just stop at a gymnasium, a staff room, or a hospital? Even if it was communicated slightly wider than this, why wouldn't it spread throughout the entire region?

To me, a total layman, it seems the environment was more important than the human to human contact. Doesn't this favour a toxin, or a pathogen like those that cause Legionnaires' Disease, to be responsible?

Here are a couple threads for you on the topic. :
"Cluster Outbreaks...."

and Katherine's post in this recent thread speaks specifically to Incline Village you may have to scroll down. It explains quite specifically what happened at the school.

I'm sure if you do a search you will find much more on the subject. Folks are still posting on both of those if you want to jump in.

And now back to the thread topic....