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Does Anyone Know Why GABA And Theanine Both Make Me MORE Anxious?

Discussion in 'Hypersensitivity and Intolerance' started by Jigsaw, Mar 4, 2017.

  1. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    Hi,

    I'm puzzled as to why GABA and theanine both make me really anxious.

    I think I passed through a thread about methylation blocks that briefly mentioned something similar, but I now can't find the thread.

    Has anyone else here been affected by GABA and theanine like this?

    They SHOULD promote calmness and tranquility, and it's the theanine content of that old crisis standby, a calming cup of tea, that gives tea that status. Tea doesn't make me anxious, but even tiny supplemental doses of either theanine or GABA have anxiety slicing through me in an almost physical way.

    I've tried different makes, different formats, and even the pure powders have me scared of everything. Obviously biochemical, but I can't work out the mechanism at play here.

    Can anyone shed any light on this for me, please?

    Thanks for reading! :)
     
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  2. 5150

    5150 Senior Member

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    This might sound odd, but some medications/ paired with certain patients & each person's unique body/ produces just the opposite effect intended, as in your case. It's known loosely as " the opps". Sorry, true medical term unknown to me.

    Just to be safe, I would ask @Jonathan Edwards.
     
  3. Skippa

    Skippa Anti-BS

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    That's v interesting, on a slight side note, because whilst I can tolerate a couple cups of coffee, I always wondered why a single cup of tea always makes me jittery. So I avoid lovely lovely tea.

    Guess it could be a similar, theanine related, thing.

    (Being British, I'm not sure what makes me more of a social pariah... having ME/CFS or not drinking tea!)
     
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  4. ArunP

    ArunP

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    I've had very very good results with clonazepam. Though it's tolerance and physical addiction profile is terrible...

    But GABA supplementation on the other hand hasn't worked well for me. It just made me feel tingly and after a few hours when it wore off it made me feel worse. From what I read Gaba supplements don't cross the blood brain barrier to actually have any affect on the Gaba I'm the brain. But instead they are absorbed jn the enteric nervous system and act on the serotonin receptors there. Idk how accurate this last info is.

    But basically GABA supplementation doesn't work for all and it most possibly doesn't mean elevated Gaba levels in the brain..

    As for L-theanine (I use Suntheanine) I really can't say I feel anything, positive or negative.

    Regards,
    Arun, India.
     
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  5. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards "Gibberish"

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    Judging by the Wikipedia article nobody actually knows if thinning does anything or whether it makes serotonin go up or down. The results seem to conflict. I suspect it does nothing much but just tastes nice. Apparently the European authorities do not allow claims of health benefits - presumably because nobody has convincingly shown they exist.
     
  6. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    Hahaha! Oh, I know that scenario VERY well! It's why my docs are all incredibly careful about meds with me now. I am considered "atypical". Or as one of my GPs used to say, despairingly, "You are just biochemically WEIRD!"

    Thanks, will do.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2017
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  7. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    @Skippa

    Indeed. You might well be sensitive to dear old theanine.

    I read on here somewhere recently that GABA (not sure about theanine) is too large a molecule to be able to pass through the BBB, and that, therefore, anyone who responds to GABA in any way, +ve or -ve'ly, must have a leaky BBB, just like some of us have leaky gut.

    I'm a Brit too. I've always been more of a coffee drinker. I know what you mean about being regarded as a pariah in our culture, esp with the CFS/FM on top of me not particularly liking the taste of tea!
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2017
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  8. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    @ArunP

    Hi, pls see an earlier reply to Skippa - sounds like you have an intact BBB, which must be a good thing :)

    I avoid pharmaceuticals as far as poss. Way too chemically sensitive to react predictably, and if there's a side-effect listed, I'll get it, and then develop 4 new ones to add to the list. Very few pharma drugs work for me as they should. Diazepam is pretty much the only sedative/anti-anxyolytic that works. Even temazepam makes me worse now. It used to be brilliant (I got given it to send me to sleep when I developed restless legs in chemo, in 2007) but I tried it again a year or so ago, and it just made me more anxious. I try it again every so often, out of curiosity more than anything else, but so far no joy.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2017
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  9. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    @Jonathan Edwards

    Hi Jonathan,

    Theanine very definitely does work for most people. It used to work for me, before chemo drastically changed my biochemistry.

    No-one in Europe or the US is ever allowed to make health claims in relation to any supplements.

    And evidence needs to be checked for big pharma funding, skewed data, etc, because big pharma is continually producing fake "evidence" of either the "inefficacy" or outright "danger" of natural therapies, because they all threaten their bottom line and they play dirty to put naive people off using them.

    Without ill-health, the pharmaceuticals woukdn't make any money. We don't have a health service in the UK or the States, we have an ill-health service. ALL the medical schools in the UK and the US are funded by pharmaceutical companies. The syllabus is therefore predominantly skewed towards finding the "correct" drug to treat a disease or condition, rather than finding out what has gone wrong in the body and putting it right naturally.

    It wasn't as bad as this in the 60's and 70's, but I'm guessing Big Pharma got a lot more powerful in the 80's. I was told recently that pretty much every major company in the world is owned by just six companies. And they are all pharmaceuticals. The power the wield is unimaginably immense. They basically own the media, and that's why every few months, yet another piece of pseudoscience appears in the papers and on the news, warning us off whatever supplement is proving effective, and therefore popular, at that time.

    A few years ago, they baldly stated that no-one could absorb more than 60mg a day of Vitamin C. The test was conducted in a test tube, with no human tissue involved. Given that there is a recognised protocol to determine an individual's requirement for Vit C at any one time, which involves taking gram after gram of Vit C until saturation point is reached and the body chucks the excess out the back door (hence the protocol's name, The Bowel Intoletance Point), the claim that 60mg is the most you can use is clearly rubbish. If you could only use 60mg, everyone would hit BIP at 65mg. Everyone's BIP is different, and each individual's BIP changes depending on how many stressors that individual is dealing with at that time. Mine varies from 6g to 20g plus.

    It's Big Pharma that tell the government, who then tell the NHS, what the RDA's need to be, and what the reference ranges for every blood or other test should be. They keep reducing the "normal" cut off points for cholesterol, so they can get more patients on statins, and for HbA1C, so they can get more patients on metformin. Both drugs have been proven to be highly destructive to other aspects of health - but that works in BP's favour, because then those patients so affected will need, guess what, MORE drugs to cope with the side-effects.

    The regulation about disallowing health benefit claims for supplements is down to BP protecting itself, and has no relation to any lack of evidence.

    Ben Goldacre, a doctor, wrote an illuminating book called called Bad Pharma. More details about the stranglehold that BP has on the world's health can be found in that.

    Did you know that even one of the big pharma companies is richer than the combined top ten individuals on the Forbes Rich List?

    Sorry! I'll be jumping down off my soapbox now......
     
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  10. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Do you think you could be getting increased calcium needs from them?
     
  11. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    @Gondwanaland

    Hi,

    I have no idea. I am not aware of a connection between calcium and GABA or theanine. Care to expand on that for me ? :)
     
  12. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    @Gondwanaland

    Hi again,

    Calcium doesn't make me anxious, and I take over a gram of mag every day too. Or do you mean that GABA/theanine actively deplete calcium?
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2017
  13. Chocolove

    Chocolove Tournament of the Phoenix - Rise Again

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    @Jigsaw Paradoxical response is one term the doctors use to describe an unexpected, especially an opposite reaction to a treatment. There is growing evidence to suggest that many disease states are accompanied by chronic elevations in sympathetic nerve activity.

    Dr. Michael Lam observed that paradoxical reactions to many things are common in the later stages of adrenal and HPA axis dysfunction, caused by severe and prolonged stress such as that brought on by serious diseases.

    Dr. Lam's website contains a lot of free information which I have found helpful.
    You might find this article of interest which describes theanine, Gaba and more:
    https://www.drlam.com/blog/biologic...nd-adrenal-fatigue-syndrome-part-2/11319/amp/

    In a run down or chronically fatigued/diseased state, essential nutrients may be depleted which are necessary but missing components to form a normal reaction, so this is always a potential issue when considering the cause of a paradoxical response.

    Anxiety is often a means whereby the body is warning that it needs a protected state with rest and nutrients albeit it may not be able to name the nutrients. The body down-regulates in a survival attempt to reduce frivolous and dangerous activity desired by the human occupant.

    BTW, consumption of any caffeine containing drink or other product is ill advised since it pushes one past the body's imposed protection limits, dangerously diverting energy from healing and other essential processes.

    How much more of a pariah will one become by drinking just water with a twist of lemon? ;)
     
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  14. Chocolove

    Chocolove Tournament of the Phoenix - Rise Again

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    @Jigsaw Have you tried chamomile tea? I don't think it has caffeine or theanine, but it is well known for calming and often helps relieve anxiety.(Avoid it if you are allergic to ragweed.)

    Here is some referenced information on chamomile:
    https://draxe.com/chamomile-benefits/ Of course there are more available online.

    I too have been very frustrated with doctors who, when inexperienced with something, simply dismiss it as ineffective, unsubstantiated or at best a placebo, when in reality they simply don't know anything about it. Such arrogant, irresponsible and blind dismissal serves no one well.

    I search for doctors who are upfront, who honestly acknowledge when they are unfamiliar with a product or treatment, rather than those who blindly and reflexively dismiss or disparage that with which they are unfamiliar.

    As doctors are under the gun from need to conform to conventional medical protocols, and the pressure to address the next incoming patient who must be served in 5-15 minutes, they are on a vicious rat wheel going round and round. They have little time to follow advances in research. Doctors just have no time for even a simple google search to check for any online PubMed data about the unfamiliar, much less time to analyze it. In any event, no one person can know everything, so I hope you have time to research your situation and products online.

    Many doctors would rather reduce all supplements from complicating the clinical picture. Some supplements are poorly or fraudulently manufactured with unknown to dangerous ingredients so there is always that worry. It adds a burden when one has to consider potential interactions of other compounds.

    There is always the overblown to outright frauds being sold to the desperate patient as well... from the over hyped new plant on the block to some common and often dependence forming pharmaceuticals. Creating dependence or an addiction certainly insures a steady stream of revenue to the purveyor.

    However today there is much more information ready at the fingertips on what may interact available in free online databases, such as with drugs.com where one can check multiple items together in a single query, greatly reducing time spent on query.

    Medicine has a long history of using helpful plant compounds and minerals, many of which are in our food and drink. To do without our plants, food or drink; we obviously won't last long. It makes me sadly laugh when I see futuristic movies where there is no plant in sight. We could never live without them.
     
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  15. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    @Chocolove

    I agree. The nutraceutical industry is as guilty of false claims as BP, and is just as profit-hungry.

    What makes me laugh is that any supplement has to prove at least 25% efficacy in irder to gain a licence for manufacture. Pharmaceuticals are only required to achieve a piddly 5%. One of my most damaging cancer treatments, Tamoxifen, only has a 3% effectiveness rating. My chemo had a 5% effectiveness rating.

    That didn't make me laugh in the slightest when my oncologist blithely told me those figures, nearly a year after chemo had disabled my body, making it almost impossible to walk without support, increasing my chemical sensitivities and allergies, knackerimg my immune system, increasing my systemic inflammation and my muscle and nerve pain, to name but a few of the things it did to me.

    It made my blood boil to think that my already fragile health had been devastated by chemo, with a 95% chance that it wouldn't even touch the cancer, and by Tamoxifen, with a 97% chance that it wouldn't prevent it coming back (and since it diverts oestrogen away from breast tissue, the oestrogen then gets dumped in the uterus instead. Uterine cancer caused by Tamoxifen is very much harder to treat than uterine cancer that occurs without Tamoxifen. The data is there to prove it.)

    I'm glad I reacted to Tamoxifen so badly so fast (3 days). It saved me yet another argument with doctors who are reduced to being drug salesmen and women.

    I was somewhat shocked to discover that hospitals get discounts for buying chemo drugs in bulk. It is logical to think that those purchased products then must be effectively "sold" to patients, or it's a waste of money. Understandable from a budget point of view. Also despicable, because when you're told you have cancer, you'll do pretty much anything they tell you that you "must" do, just because you don't want to die. Fear, and trust in the experts, leaves the average cancer patient feeling that there is no choice but to follow the oncologist's recommendations.

    I'd have eaten my right arm off up to the elbow if they'd told me that would get rid of the cancer.

    I agree re arrogance and lack of education. It isn't surprising, really, given that their education is all pharmaceutically-based. Sad, disappointing, even counter-productive, but not surprising.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2017
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  16. Chocolove

    Chocolove Tournament of the Phoenix - Rise Again

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    The use of any dietary supplement during the treatment of cancer isn’t advisable unless under the direct consent and supervision of a medical professional. Dietary supplements can interact with medications...

    @Jigsaw I hope you have a list of your Chemo drugs and have checked to see what essential nutrients they deplete.
    Since an estimated 70-80% of Americans do not even consume the RDA of magnesium, that is one to definitely check out.

    Have you any familiarity with Suzy Cohen, R.Ph.? She is the pharmacist who authored the book, Drug Muggers: Which Medications Are Robbing Your Body of Essential Nutrients--and Natural Ways to Restore Them.

    Here is an excerpt from her book with regard to some common meds that deplete magnesium.
    http://www.jigsawhealth.com/blog/drug-muggers-suzy-cohen-magnesium/

    Some of the chemo interactions with B vitamins are mentioned here:
    http://www.livestrong.com/article/507366-the-use-of-vitamin-b-complex-during-chemotherapy/

    Most notably and more on thread topic:
    I really hope you have checked out curcumin, the compound found in the spice turmeric which researchers are pursuing with a considerable number of studies in regard to cancer treatment. Further, it may aid in anxiety and depression as discussed here:
    http://kellybroganmd.com/move-over-prozac-how-turmeric-helps-with-depression/
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...nxiety-symptoms-with-three-supplements.18369/ wherein Hip discusses his use of Turmeric in eliminating severe anxiety.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2017
  17. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    @Chocolove

    My chemo finished in 2008. I checked everything thoroughly and worked with a holistic nurse attached to my clinic. My supplementation was effective enough to make my hair come back with no changes in colour or texture, so I must have done something right - I was really hoping for curly hair to replace my dead straight stuff, but it came back just as dead straight.

    I juiced organic carrots and apples every day, which kept my WBC up. I wasn't about to end up pumped with antib's in an isolation ward for 5 days with neutropenic sepsis. My whites on carrot juice were higher than the baseline measurement they took the week before chemo started. My oncologist was so impressed that he bought his own juicer. I also went dairy-free for over a year, having read Jane Plant's book about oestrogen breast cancer, "Your Life In Their Hands".

    I drink very little coffee.

    I already use Turmeric.

    I take 5-10K IU D3, along with 100mcg K2 MK7, a day, and have done since 2013. No, I do not have hypercalcaemia, but I have reversed the osteoporosis that resulted from my breast cancer treatments, and I have two DEXA scans to prove it.

    I have always taken enough magnesium (citrate and malate) to keep me just under the bowel marker.

    No, I haven't heard of Suzy Cohen, but thanks for that link, and the others. I will go and research them.

    Yes, I drink cham tea and am fully aware of its properties. I also use the oil in aromatherapy preparations.

    Thanks again for the links and your respnses :)
     
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  18. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    @Chocolove

    Re "Paradoxical response" - My bizarre drug reactions far pre-date my dysfunctional HPA axis, unless that was happening in childhood too, but it's interesting to note the connection.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2017
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  19. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    Have found this:

    Nutrients and Botanicals For Treatment Of Stress: Adrenal Fatigue, Neurotransmitter Imbalance, Anxiety and Restless Sleep. (Alternative Medicine Review, Vol.14/2, 2009, pp114-140, K A Head, ND, & G. S. Kelly, ND)

    Fully referenced review article.

    http://www.altmedrev.com/publications/14/2/114.pdf
     
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  20. Chocolove

    Chocolove Tournament of the Phoenix - Rise Again

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    Perhaps it is the increase in dopamine caused by L-theanine which is causing a neurotransmitter imbalance resulting in your increased anxiety?

    Are perhaps some of your enzymes non-functional due to a missing but required nutrient cofactor, resulting in a dysfunctional state? Definitely want to check out what may be missing in diet or depleted by drugs, or prevented from absorption or utilization by personal genetics.

    Could you somehow be processing theanine quickly into excitatory glutamic acid and you have perhaps already have a glutamic acid overload? As in the problems with MSG...

    Is your enzyme glutaminase not functional? That leads to more questions...

    I'm getting a bit dizzy from speculation and I am no biochemist.
     
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