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Doctor Claims Leaky Gut is "Easy" To Fix

roller

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Messages
775
if they would look into "high permeability and its causes...in an cfs/me-group"?
 

caledonia

Senior Member
See my signature link for a link to the 4R Gut Rebuilding Program used by the Functional Medicine Institute. This is the state of the art on treating leaky gut/intestinal permeability or whatever you want to call "it".

A functional medicine doctor would be the best kind of doctor to treat this or at least should be familiar with this program. It's best to do all four steps, not just a couple. For example, it's common for practitioners to think that they can starve out the bad bacteria with a low carb diet, and not test for and give proper anti-fungals.

Also consider that you may have mercury toxicity, which is associated with bacterial overgrowth leading to leaky gut. Especially if you're unable to completely clear the problem with a 4R type program.

In that case, see the Andrew Cutler Frequent Dose Chelation protocol. Any other type of chelation which is not frequent dose (all of them) has the potential to make you worse due to redistribution of mercury.

I just added info for that in my signature link.
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
Not something I've done much research on, but 'leaky gut' does seem to be one of those terms which I notice turning up on quack's websites, and being used to promote dodgy alternative treatments.

Medicine has fads. Its not just quackery either. Mainstream medicine, and especially psychiatry, is rife with faddish diagnoses that go beyond the evidence. Lots of things are probably over- and mis-diagnosed. Childhood bipolar, ADHD, and even CFS are probably frequently misdiagnosed. In the UK CFS misdiagnosis is at least 40%.

So "quack" or alternative websites might promote poor or unproven treatments. So do regular doctors. The evidence based movement got some of its impetus from the need to correct this. However that has also become a source of bias.

One of the reasons driving over-diagnosis is fear of underdiagnosis. CFS might be a major anomaly, and worth considering in that light, as the underdiagnosis problem is massive, but so is the overdiagnosis problem.

One of the issues driving faddish and quack treatments is the lack of quality research and good treatments. Doctors want to be able to fix things, and so they keep looking. Just as we do in trying to fix our CFS or ME. Some is outright fraud of course, but I suspect most isn't. Its wrong, or biased, or overpromoted, but not fraudulent.
 

roller

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Messages
775
older studies list 1, 2, 3, researchers.
nowadays its 10 to 20 ?
not that 'having published something' is the driving cause behind this...
 
Messages
13,774
So "quack" or alternative websites might promote poor or unproven treatments. So do regular doctors. The evidence based movement got some of its impetus from the need to correct this. However that has also become a source of bias.

Yeah, I certainly didn't mean to imply quackery is limited to alternative practitioners.
 

sarah darwins

Senior Member
Messages
2,508
Location
Cornwall, UK
older studies list 1, 2, 3, researchers.
nowadays its 10 to 20 ?
not that 'having published something' is the driving cause behind this...

A pubMed search on 'intestinal permeability' returns almost 12,000 results, many of them very recent, so it's not exactly a marginal area of interest.

My reading of it is that there's a clear consensus that increased intestinal permeability / leaky gut is a thing, but it's still poorly understood and doctors aren't quite sure what to do with it. But as an avenue for exploration in chronic illness, it shows a lot of promise. Michael Maes (mentioned in the title of this subforum) found promising symptom improvement in me/cfs patients by treating leaky gut with l-glutamine, zinc and NAC. Best results are with young sufferers or those with illness < 5 years, which rules a lot of us out, but still suggests a very promising area for research. But it was quite a long-term treatment and definitely not "easy to fix" (getting back to the title of the thread).

Regarding the 'proper' name for the concept, leaky gut is just informal shorthand. A lot of this research has been carried out in non-English speaking countries. If English isn't your first language, leaky gut is a lot easier to say than increased intestinal permeability. The term has acquired a certain 'quacky' association though because some people have pushed the notion of 'leaky gut syndrome', which seems to have come from nowhere and is indeed often used to promote sketchy therapies and potions.
 

Skippa

Anti-BS
Messages
841
A gastroenterologist sticks a tube down your throat, and up your bum, looking for damage.

They can't see any, so it's IBS. Period.

The problem is, of course, you can't see leaky permeable intestinal guts (heh), so as far as mainstream treatment goes... The same old CFS thing... If we can't see it, we can't treat it... Bring in the psychos!
 

Justin30

Senior Member
Messages
1,065
Intestinal permeability in cfs/me patients has been shown higher in patients after exercise testing over normal controls.

Everytime i over do it my gut hurts? Why?

Naturopath says intestinal permeability, testing shows high LPS and Bacterial overgrowths.

80% of out immune cells/system resides in our gut. Most serotonin and other neuro transmitters are in our gut.

This is a Neuro Immune illness

CCC and ICC criteria require gut issues for diagnosis

The process of converting food to energy and other vital processes is in our gut. If not functioning correctly you get sick.

Pooing is the elimination of waste from our body and if we dont digest and poop right we are toxic. If we don't digest right we are malnutrioned or off balance.

Virus Hunter Ian Lipkin says its in the gut and is parred up with Dr Daniel Petterson and is part of the big NIH Study.

OMI the 2 Dr Ks treat the gut. SIBO. What is SIBO REALLY???? What are the long term impacts malnurtionment, damage, etc.???? 80% or higher of me/cfs patients tested positive for it in clinical settings by good researchers. It can come back very easy even after erradicating it several times.

Why do we have to take more supplements for nourishment than others to feel better?

Dr KDM says gut for 6-7 years. Has seen more ME patients than most at 15-20k.

Dr Chenney's protocols called for radical alterations of food and nutrient intake. Digestive aids, mediteranian diet, substantial amount of supplement intake due to poor absorption. Last step in the 2003 protocol.

Dr Chia found enteroviruses in the gut through biopsy

I really dont know.

Have you checked these symptoms on yourself:
  • Bad Breath
  • Slow digestions constipation diarhea
  • Pains of any type in the abdomen
  • Have you checked your Poo Chart the online one
  • Sensitivity too foods
  • Weight loss
  • Do your gums bleed after brushing your teeth
  • Gum disease after ME
  • Always thirsty or dry mouth
  • Peeing frequently

The Gut is from your mouth to your arsshole and contains the largest orifices in our bodies. Where do you think bacterias and viruses enter mostly if not through the largest organ the skin? And where do you think most live?

The Gut contains trillions of bacteria along with viruses and parasites.

I dont know if the gut is the answer but it is now being explored quite heavily.
 

roller

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Messages
775
Intestinal permeability in cfs/me patients has been shown higher in patients after exercise testing over normal controls

does this mean its the same while resting ?

also, it appears that really everything has to be 'explored quite heavily'.
 

Justin30

Senior Member
Messages
1,065
Im not sure the study was done using exercise testing at timed intervals. Showed up to 45% increase in permeability I think...it was a lot more permeable after exercise in CFS patients.

Similar findings to those SPECT and PET scans after exercise reduced blood flow.
 

kangaSue

Senior Member
Messages
1,851
Location
Brisbane, Australia
There is a well established mechanism known to cause intestinal permeability which can occur with anyone who has gut dysbiosis. Intestinal ischemia is known to promote translocation of bacteria and endotoxin from the intestine to the systemic circulation which can further lead to causing bacterial overgrowth.

Diverting the blood flow away from the bowel during the digestion process causes intestinal ischemia. There are no commercial tests around to diagnose this and I can say from personal experience that, on the same day I had a colonoscopy showing severe intestinal ischemia with inflammation and marked breakdown of the intestinal mucosa layer resulting in perforation of the bowel, the usual standard blood tests taken 30 minutes looking for sign of increased inflammatory markers or lactic acidosis all showed normal levels.

Oh, and you can have it without any symptoms at all too so anyone could have intestinal ischemia causing intestinal permeability without ever even knowing it.
 

kangaSue

Senior Member
Messages
1,851
Location
Brisbane, Australia
I see there are actually a couple of markers that might indicate intestinal ischemia. According to the following paper, the presence of d-lactate and LPS are a couple of possible markers to indicate intestinal permeability which occurs as a result of a breakdown of the intestinal mucosa barrier and this barrier breakdown can occur as a result of chronic intestinal ischemia events.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2980675/

[Translocation of bacteria and their products

Breakdown of the mucosal barrier potentially leads to translocation of microbiota or their toxic products. Two promising plasma markers, reflecting translocation of bacteria or their products, are D-lactate and endotoxin lipopolysaccharide (LPS), which are metabolic products or components of the commensal bacteria of the gastrointestinal tract. D-lactate is only produced by bacteria as a product of bacterial fermentation[10]. Baseline levels of D-lactate in healthy subjects are very low. Increased levels of D-lactate have been correlated with conditions in which the number of bacteria elevates rapidly, including in patients with bacterial overgrowth due to infection, short bowel syndrome, and mesenteric ischaemia[11]. LPS, the major constituent of the outer membrane of Gram-negative bacteria, is released by Gram-negative bacteria when replicating or dying. Increased circulating LPS levels have been related to an impaired mucosal barrier. The presence of LPS can be measured directly in blood, e.g. by the Limulus Amoebocyte Lysate assay[12]. In addition, anti-LPS antibodies can be measured by endotoxin-core antibody (EndoCAb), an indirect measurement of LPS leakage into the circulation[13]. A drop in levels of circulating anti-LPS antibodies is considered to indicate consumption of antibodies to LPS by exposure to LPS[14].]
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,895
The information on this page with respect to gut health is helping me. I started taking biotin a little over a week ago and although I had some strange sensations the first couple of days I stuck with it and have been sleeping better, eating more, and the flakes on my face have cleared up. Not to mention a good amount of lessening of constipation.

http://www.mold-help.org/content/view/411/
 

South

Senior Member
Messages
466
Location
Southeastern United States
Messages
99
Your doctor doesn't "believe in" something that has published scientific clinical reviews? And is discussed in Pub Med by M.D.s, without any doubt of its existance?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1856434/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4253991/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26582965
Well maybe it's like the adrenal fatigue thing.
Those studies don't mention 'leaky gut'

Adrenal fatigue doesn't exist but HPA Axis dysfunction does. I remember my doctor telling me[ if people had leaky gut it would kill them]
This is same the Dr who has posted extensively on the internet about what 'adrenal fatigue' really is and gets huge praise for it in this forum and others.
If there's time I will ask him about leaky gut at my next appt and report back.
 

keenly

Senior Member
Messages
814
Location
UK
I've heard that it's a term associated with quackery too. I don't really know anything about this, but I would be cautious with any things like this, and try to make sure that any treatments are based upon good quality evidence, controlled trials, etc. Good luck.
Even BBC programs about food have had scientists using the term leaky gut.