DHEA

[heapsreal]

consider pregnenolone to try and help with low dhea??

 

[CFS_for_19_years]

Nope, sorry. The actual scientific literature doesn't bear any of that out. It's just his opinion.

I do agree to work on the state of the HPA axis to optimize cortisol and DHEA production on your own but there is zero evidence that taking it long terms shuts down the adrenals.

There is also no evidence that DHEA lowers cortisol further once it is already too low. If that were the case, people with Addison's would not see benefit from supplementing DHEA and the literature clearly shows an increase in well being from supplementation.

It's a common misconception though so I understand how one could be mislead.

FWIW, I counted at least three factual mistakes in the Holtorf presentation. Take that video with a grain of salt...most notably that Florinef shouldn't be taken by those with high blood pressure. Florinef can normalize high blood pressure as well. It's not cut and dried.

No need to apologize. Here is some "actual scientific literature."

http://www.ergo-log.com/dhea-supplementation-lowers-cortisol-levels.html

Researchers use a dose of 50 mg DHEA per day in most studies. In 2006 Italian researchers published the results of a study on the effect of a considerably lower dose of DHEA on cortisol levels. [Gynecol Endocrinol. 2006 Nov;22(11):627-35.]

The Italians gave their test subjects – women aged between 50 and 55 [dark bars on the figure below] and between 60 and 65 [light coloured bars] – a daily 25 mg DHEA for a period of 12 months. 0 = cortisol level before DHEA supplementation started; 2 = after 3 months; 3 = after 6 months; 4 = after 12 months

The information above was taken from the following article:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17145649

Gynecol Endocrinol. 2006 Nov;22(11):627-35.
Long-term low-dose oral administration of dehydroepiandrosterone modulates adrenal response to adrenocorticotropic hormone in early and late postmenopausal women.
Genazzani AR1, Pluchino N, Begliuomini S, Stomati M, Bernardi F, Pieri M, Casarosa E, Palumbo M, Genazzani AD, Luisi M.
Author information
Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
The aging process is associated with a decline in the circulating Delta5-androgen dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) and its sulfate ester, dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate (DHEAS). The present study aimed to evaluate the effects of a long-term (12 months) oral DHEA administration (25 mg/day) on adrenal function, before and after 3, 6 and 12 months of treatment.

METHOD:
Postmenopausal women belonging to two age groups, 50-55 years (n = 10) and 60-65 years (n = 10), were studied. Adrenal function was assessed in basal conditions, after suppression with dexamethasone (DXM) and following a stimulation test with adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH) (10 microg bolus). Serum levels of DHEA, DHEAS, androstenedione (Delta4-A), allopregnanolone, 17-hydroxyprogesterone (17-OHP) and cortisol were measured and the effects of DHEA supplementation on specific adrenal enzymatic pathways were evaluated by calculating precursor/product ratios (17-OHP/cortisol, 17-OHP/Delta4-A, DHEA/Delta4-A and DHEA/DHEAS).

RESULTS:
DHEA supplementation annulled the age-related differences in DHEA and DHEAS levels and induced a marked increase in all steroids, except for cortisol, after 3-6 months of treatment. Serum cortisol levels decreased from the 3rd month, both in younger and older subjects. DHEA supplementation did not affect DXM-induced suppression of adrenal steroidogenesis. During the treatment period all adrenal androgens and progestins showed a significant increase in their response to ACTH, while the cortisol response decreased significantly. The results suggest a significant DHEA-induced change in adrenal enzymatic activities, as also evidenced by the change in precursor/product ratios during therapy.

CONCLUSION:
Chronic DHEA administration is capable of modifying circulating levels of androgens and progestins in both early and late postmenopausal women by modulating the age-related changes in adrenal function.

 

[Ema]

No need to apologize. Here is some "actual scientific literature."

http://www.ergo-log.com/dhea-supplementation-lowers-cortisol-levels.html




The information above was taken from the following article:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17145649

Neither of those articles (while certainly interesting) address whether or not DHEA continues to lower cortisol levels once they are already low or can permanently suppress the adrenal's production of those hormones and those are the points under debate.

I completely agree that DHEA can lower high cortisol levels, and it would be completely expected that both body builders and older women would have high cortisol levels that would be normalized by DHEA. Although it is interesting that in the first study it took 200 mg and even then the differences were not always statistically significant.

But what isn't clear from those studies, and cannot be implied, is that taking DHEA in a physiological dose over the long term either suppresses the adrenals (if anything it suppresses the pituitary's production of ACTH and even that is not proven in cases of low cortisol or over periods greater than 6 months) or lowers cortisol production in those where it is already low.

I took DHEA over the course of more than a year at 10-20 mg a day and I can tell you for sure that neither my cortisol nor my ACTH were ever suppressed. I have all the labs to prove it. Of course that is only the anecdotal evidence of one person, but it rules out a blanket statement about DHEA always lowering cortisol. All that can be said with certainty is that DHEA can lower cortisol under certain circumstances, but it may very well have no effect under others.

To say otherwise is to read things into the literature that aren't there which is unfortunately what a number of doctors and other medical professionals have erroneously chosen to do.

 

[perchance dreamer]

I use a 7-keto DHEA transdermal. From what I understand, the 7-keto does not raise estrogen and testosterone. I'm not sure what its effect on cortisol is.

 

[Ema]

I use a 7-keto DHEA transdermal. From what I understand, the 7-keto does not raise estrogen and testosterone. I'm not sure what its effect on cortisol is.

It doesn't work the same way as the parent DHEA but it may still have effects on other steroid hormones. There is just so much interplay and so much unknown to be able to definitively make statements. It actually may decrease testosterone.

From Wikipedia:

"When used in a topical (skin lotion) product 7-Keto caused long-lasting changes in the body's levels of testosterone, epitestosterone, estradiol, and other steroid hormones.[6]"

1. Sulcová J, Hampl R, Hill M, Stárka L, Novácek A (2005)
   1. Sulcová J, Hampl R, Hill M, Stárka L, Novácek A (2005). "
      1. Sulcová J, Hampl R, Hill M, Stárka L, Novácek A (2005). "Delayed effects of short-term transdermal application of 7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone on its metabolites, some hormonal steroids and relevant proteohormones in healthy male volunteers". Clin. Chem. Lab. Med. 43 (2): 221–7. doi:10.1515/CCLM.2005.038. PMID 15843221.
      
      
      
      

 

[perchance dreamer]

Yeah, all that hormone interplay stuff is so complicated. I do the at-home salivary hormone test once a year, and my PA uses the results to formulate what's in my hormone custom creme.

 

[Katyw]

@Ema I haven't really found a difference with the HC cream yet, maybe it's too early. I'll definitely liquorice and the zinc options - thanks

I've just taken a look at my results for cortisol and DHEA and they are as follows:

My cortisol results:

Post wakening: 26.4 (12-22)

Mid morning 3.0 (5.0-9.0)

Afternoon 1.1 (3.0-7.0)

Prior sleep 0.5 (1.0-3.0)


DHEA am: 0.24 (0.40-1.47)

DHEA pm: 0.26 (0.40-1.47)

Does anyone have any input?

 

[2manyhobbies]

Colgan (Micheal) published a book called Hormonal Health and pretty well covers the entire hormone cascade. He stresses that you need to start at the top and work your way down to avoid problems. As I recall melatonin is top dog in regulation and it trickles down the ladder from there.

 

[Gingergrrl]

I had low cortisol and DHEA when I did the 24-hour saliva test and my ND recommended 5 mg/day to be taken in the morning. I tried it several times but it always gave me severe nausea. Now that my stomach is better, I may try it again but haven't decided.

 

[end]

Nope, sorry. The actual scientific literature doesn't bear any of that out. It's just his opinion.

I do agree to work on the state of the HPA axis to optimize cortisol and DHEA production on your own but there is zero evidence that taking it long terms shuts down the adrenals.

There is also no evidence that DHEA lowers cortisol further once it is already too low. If that were the case, people with Addison's would not see benefit from supplementing DHEA and the literature clearly shows an increase in well being from supplementation.

It's a common misconception though so I understand how one could be mislead.

FWIW, I counted at least three factual mistakes in the Holtorf presentation. Take that video with a grain of salt...most notably that Florinef shouldn't be taken by those with high blood pressure. Florinef can normalize high blood pressure as well. It's not cut and dried.

@Ema

"Take that video with a grain of salt...most notably that Florinef shouldn't be taken by those with high blood pressure. Florinef can normalize high blood pressure as well. It's not cut and dried.[/quote]"

In my case Florinef caused my hypertension to increase so much, that I ended up in the ER. The doctors were freaking out more then I was. They ordered me to stop taking the Florinef and have been on Antihypertensives ever since. I have elaborated in regards to that experience on this forum months ago. So like you stated "it's not cut and dried" is very true.

 

[dannybex]

There is also no evidence that DHEA lowers cortisol further once it is already too low. If that were the case, people with Addison's would not see benefit from supplementing DHEA and the literature clearly shows an increase in well being from supplementation.

It's a common misconception though so I understand how one could be mislead.

FWIW, I counted at least three factual mistakes in the Holtorf presentation. Take that video with a grain of salt...most notably that Florinef shouldn't be taken by those with high blood pressure. Florinef can normalize high blood pressure as well. It's not cut and dried.

Very interesting @Ema . I'm curious if you know if those with Addisons who find benefit from DHEA are also supplementing cortisone? I'm guessing they are, but would appreciate your feedback.


Also, this study was posted on another thread, but it's a little vague, and the dose of DHEA was high:


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/12544381/

 

[Ema]

Very interesting @Ema . I'm curious if you know if those with Addisons who find benefit from DHEA are also supplementing cortisone? I'm guessing they are, but would appreciate your feedback.


Also, this study was posted on another thread, but it's a little vague, and the dose of DHEA was high:


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/12544381/

Yes, I don't know anyone with AI that can get by without replacement HC.

There's no doubt that DHEA can lower cortisol. I just don't know if it continues to do so once the cortisol level is low or insufficient. I would doubt it though and if the DHEA level is low, I think supplementation is worth a try no matter where the cortisol level falls out in the range.

 

[dannybex]

Yes, I don't know anyone with AI that can get by without replacement HC.

There's no doubt that DHEA can lower cortisol. I just don't know if it continues to do so once the cortisol level is low or insufficient. I would doubt it though and if the DHEA level is low, I think supplementation is worth a try no matter where the cortisol level falls out in the range.

AI -- do you mean 'adrenal insufficiency'? That's quite different from Addison's...

 

[Ema]

AI -- do you mean 'adrenal insufficiency'? That's quite different from Addison's...

Addison's is adrenal insufficiency. Typically, primary adrenal insufficiency (as opposed to secondary or tertiary) but the end result is the same...not enough cortisol.

 

[dannybex]

Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, but thanks.

 

[Ema]

Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, but thanks.

Agree to disagree about what exactly? I'm confused! Any medical textbook will tell you Addison's equals primary adrenal insufficiency.

From Wikipedia;

Addison’s disease (also Addison disease, chronic adrenal insufficiency, hypocortisolism, and hypoadrenalism) is a rare, chronic endocrine system disorder in which the adrenal glands do not produce sufficient steroid hormones (glucocorticoidsand often mineralocorticoids)

 

[dannybex]

Yes, but I think there's a huge difference between 'primary adrenal insufficiency' and 'secondary' or the common adrenal insufficiency, or adrenal burnout, adrenal fatigue, etc..