Daily Telegraph: It’s time for doctors to apologise to their ME patients (Charles Shepherd)

[TiredSam]

The utter lack of logical and critical thought in that post is stunning. Ya gotta wonder where this person was educated and if that institution needs to be investigated to see what on earth they're teaching because it doesn't appear to have anything to do with actual thinking.

The whole mind/body/psychosomatic thing seems to have been invented so that people who can't be bothered thinking but want to sound clever have got something to say. For best effect it should be referred to with an air of wisdom and condescension, perhaps with a finger raised in the air.

 

[Skippa]

Hey, we live in a world where people will post online that other people are lazy / stupid / work-shy just because they are brown, or speak with an accent, or vote for the wrong party etc etc. We can't expect them to act any more rationally towards us.

Nothing holds them back, CFS/ME patients are just another target. There's always got to be a bogey man.

There is a psychological theory of projection, where people project their own feelings of inadequacy or unwanted emotions onto others. Well, if this psycho-babble they are so ready to uphold is true, then they are surely just projecting onto patient groups, deflecting their own low self esteems.

That, and trolls.

 

[digital dog]

I wrote this in the comment section (it is underlined here for some reason???)

MS, parksinsons, asthma, lupus, ulcers, rheumatoid arthritis etc etc were all previously thought to be psycho-somantic conditions.

Very soon, ME will be viewed as a systemic, physical disease and all those doctors that put blame on their patient will be hanging their heads in shame.

ME patients are one of the most sickest in our society and they have been stigmatised, demoralised and left to rot.

Shame on all those that perpetuate the lies and ignorance surrounding this dreadful disease.

 

[digital dog]

Should be 'shame on those WHO not that'
DRAT!

 

[A.B.]

The BPS approach is only a hypothetical framework construct. Its not reality.

The paper in which Engel proposed the BPS model cited an example patient which had a heart attack, and then later a second heart attack for psychological reasons (or something like that, I'm going from memory). The patient was fictional. They cannot find real world examples of psychological factors causing illness but that doesn't stop them from treating it as dogma.

 

[Cheshire]

The paper in which Engel proposed the BPS model cited an example patient which had a heart attack, and then later a second heart attack for psychological reasons (or something like that, I'm going from memory). The patient was fictional. They cannot find real world examples of psychological factors causing illness but that doesn't stop them from treating it as dogma.

Do you have the reference? An how did they justify that?

 

[A.B.]

It wasn't in the original paper but another on the clinical application of the BPS model:

http://www.mcw.edu/FileLibrary/User/meradjen/EngelClinicalApplication..1980.pdf

Interviewed a few days later, Mr. Glover was able to reconstruct the events in the emergency department leading up to the cardiac arrest. His account raised doubts that the onset of ventricular fibrillation could be ascribed solely to processes originating in the injured myocardium alone. Rather, it suggested a major role for extracardiac (neurogenic) influences originating the disturbances at the two-person and person levels.

Amusingly the key point that that it psychogenic is omitted from the Wikipedia article on the BPS model where this hypothetical patient is mentioned. As usual they are ashamed of their own beliefs.

Wikipedia does say however that the patient is fictional.

 

[worldbackwards]

The paper in which Engel proposed the BPS model cited an example patient which had a heart attack, and then later a second heart attack for psychological reasons (or something like that, I'm going from memory). The patient was fictional. They cannot find real world examples of psychological factors causing illness but that doesn't stop them from treating it as dogma.

If this did actually happen, then under the current model would the heart attack patient be told to re-examine their illness beliefs in order to restart the heart? If they subsequently died, would this be viewed as a result of their recalcitrance and lack of motivation? What would be the secondary gains?

 

[Ellie_Finesse]

For those that want to share @charles shepherd article via The Telegragh, FB have now rectified the situation. I just tested it out and it worked

 

[Chrisb]

Have the bps psychiatrists ever articulated precisely what they consider to be the relationship between the "mind" and the brain? I presume that they would accept that for any activity within the "mind" there is related and corresponding activity within the brain. What do they imagine the temporal relationship between these various activities to be? Do they believe the activity within the "mind" to be precedent to, simultaneous with, or subsequent to the activity within the brain?

If they consider that activity within the mind precedes that in the brain, the theory would seem to be, by definition, metaphysical. If the mind is simultaneous with, or subsequent to, the brain by what causative process do they imagine that the mind could influence the brain?

Given the complexities which have troubled great thinkers over long periods of time it is easy to understand why we are supposed to accept as a categorical imperative that the mind influences the brain, influences the body. This must be their position until some new form of physics gains credence.

 

[biophile]

I think there's a large study or meta-analysis where positive emotion was reported to be a (small) risk factor for stroke. The only rational response to such a finding is rolling out CBT to combat this 'maladaptive' emotion.

 

[TiredSam]

I think there's a large study or meta-analysis where positive emotions was reported to be a (small) risk factor for stroke. The only rational response to such a finding is rolling out CBT to combat this 'maladaptive' emotion.

At last, good news for a grumpy skeptic . I'll try not to feel too happy about it, lest it damage my health.

 

[ScottTriGuy]

 

[alex3619]

Have the bps psychiatrists ever articulated precisely what they consider to be the relationship between the "mind" and the brain?

If you raise these questions they typically launch into an argument about dualist fallacies. They sidestep the question. They have no answer as to the relationship with mind and brain, only unsubstantiated argument.

 

[alex3619]

@SilverbladeTE, to that list of problems in psychiatry you can add diagnostic inflation. Huge numbers of people, I mean staggeringly large, are diagnosed with psych disorders who should not be, or when the problems are self limiting or will naturally resolve. They are put on drugs, which have side effects, and which are dangerous. Drug companies actively advertise they can help, and patients go to doctors looking for help, and doctors give it.

There is a double standard here. Opioids are being denied patients in extreme pain on a far too regular basis, while dangerous medications are being given to even children almost like they are candy.

Its estimated by some, including Allen Frances, that huge numbers of children treated for ADHD might be better off without drug treatment. Its been claimed by others, and I have not seen formal studies, that depression is far less prolonged, and self limiting, for most patients if they are not given antidepressants. This is actually a case for talk therapy in my view, as it should do far less harm for this subgroup.

Doctors are frequently overly influenced by pharma marketing strategies, but so are the public, and the media, and sick people go to doctors and demand answers. Doctors often comply. Its a loop leading to more diagnostic inflation, more over-prescription, and more iatrogenic harm. There is not even a very viable way to break this, as its very very hard for patients to sue doctors over these issues in psych disorders. This is compounded by laws that protect drug companies and doctors against a lot of suits, though not in all countries ... sadly this protection is enacted in both the UK and Australia.

 

[SilverbladeTE]

Alex
the entire system, of which Medical is part, is designed to protect the Elite
to make them richer
to avoid paying tax
avoid responsibility and punishment etc

hence much of the woes flow from that

and why I keep saying, we need democracy by lottery, like jury duty, 1 term only, no re-election, no more political parties, no more political "class" digging in like ticks.
and limit maximum income and wealth to no more than x4 that of a good living basic wage, and base it of risk, societal need, degrading nature etc. NOT because you're some rich old white guy who's family were once biggest raping murdering or con gaming scum there were a millennia ago.
to hell with the Elite, literally

 

[jimells]

CHECK!

A person might be tempted to think that these consistent "checklists" that show up in comments to every honest ME article all come from the same source(s). But that would be paranoid, or something...

 

[PhoenixDown]

Excellent article @charles shepherd , would have been even better if you mentioned that the Norwegian government has already apologised to M.E. patients for their mistreatment.

 

[Strawberry]

There is a double standard here. Opioids are being denied patients in extreme pain on a far too regular basis, while dangerous medications are being given to even children almost like they are candy.

When my daughter was about 13 or so, she got an extremely severe ear infection (possibly from her mono, I don't remember) and the hospital gave her a few weeks worth of opiates. They insisted that (children and) teens can't get addicted to opiates like adults do. Thankfully she was smarter than that and never took one pill. I threw the bottle away eventually. Probably had good street value, looking back...

 

[waiting]

Excellent, @charles shepherd -- thank you!

It would be really good to add Dr. Shepard's article to ME Action's new MEpedia (wiki for ME) -- (especially the context of Royal Free outbreak). @JenB.

Unfortunately, I cannot look into this right now -- but if anyone here can, here's the link to ME Action's announcement & "how to":

http://www.me-pedia.org/index.php?title=MEpedia:How_To_Contribute