Curious about mitochondria...

[ppodhajski]

I'm not aware of any. Can you list them, and the source?

I am my source. I said "some of the genes I see", not that researchers see.

But if you want a gene that is not on the X chromosome that is an epigenetic gene see GPx
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21552194

SOD is another:
http://phoenixrising.me/research-2/...ue-syndrome-part-iva-superoxide-and-the-heart

Since MAOA and MAOB SNPs (X chromosome genes) can produce free radicals in the mitochondria, they are two of the epigenetic genes I could see, in part, causing CFS.

CFS/ME is the result of free radical damage. (That was a period at the end of that sentence.) Since research cannot account for all of the variables that can effect epigenetic expression of these genes they will always fall short at explaining why. This is where we need to abandon science and become more "artistic".

I think, Valentijn, if I can try to put this kindly, is where you are falling short. You are very science and data oriented, but science needs creativity and looking from a distance.

 

[Valentijn]

I am my source. I said "some of the genes I see", not that researchers see.

I think you need to be a lot clearer about that, in general

CFS/ME is the result of free radical damage. (That was a period at the end of that sentence.)

Is there any source to suggest that, or is it your belief again?

I think, Valentijn, if I can try to put this kindly, is where you are falling short. You are very science and data oriented, but science needs creativity and looking from a distance.

When science stops being scientific, it stops being science. You're making a lot of guesses based on nothing more than belief and your personal and limited observations, which don't even seem to have a structured or rigorous basis. Science is far more reliable, in my opinion, than Some Guy On The Internet.

 

[ppodhajski]

I think you need to be a lot clearer about that, in general

Is there any source to suggest that, or is it your belief again?

I can't do all your googling for you, but here is a start:

Oxidative stress levels are raised in chronic fatigue syndrome and are associated with clinical symptoms.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16085177

Association of abnormal erythrocyte morphology with oxidative stress and inflammation in metabolic syndrome
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S107997961500025X

Fibromyalgia and Chronic Fatigue: The Underlying Biology and Related Theoretical Issues
This chapter will focus on inflammatory and oxidative stress pathways and on the neuroendocrine system, which have been more commonly examined. Chronic inflammation, together with raised levels of oxidative stress and mitochondrial dysfunction, has been increasingly associated with the manifestation of symptoms such as pain, fatigue, impaired memory, and depression, which largely characterise at least some patients suffering from CFS and FM.

Is that enough research? No? Well go here:
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?...&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=1,48&as_ylo=2011&as_vis=1

If you do not see that oxidative stress is the cause of CFS/ME then no wonder you cannot see the genes responsible for it.

 

[ppodhajski]

And again, your interpretation of what I write is frustratingly wrong. I did not say "stop being scientific" I said "You are very science and data oriented, but science needs creativity and looking from a distance".

If you cannot see what I write instead of trying to discredit me I am afraid I cannot continue dialogue with you.

 

[Valentijn]

And again, your interpretation of what I write is frustratingly wrong. I did not say "stop being scientific" I said "You are very science and data oriented, but science needs creativity and looking from a distance".

You are looking at it from such an incredible distance that I don't think you're even understanding what science should look like. You're contradicting quite a bit of it very confidently with nothing more than your personal theories, and presenting additional theories as fact with no substantial basis.

If "creativity" means doing away with basic scientific principles, then it ceases to be science. You are going far beyond looking at things from a different perspective - you are making things up and using them as a substitute for science.

While beliefs have their place, it's best to avoid intermingling them with science.

 

[Mij]

If you do not see that oxidative stress is the cause of CFS/ME then no wonder you cannot see the genes responsible for it.

Oxidative stress is also the cause of aging, wrinkles, sagging, brown spots . . .

 

[ppodhajski]

You are looking at it from such an incredible distance that I don't think you're even understanding what science should look like. You're contradicting quite a bit of it very confidently with nothing more than your personal theories, and presenting additional theories as fact with no substantial basis.
.

What am I contradicting? I showed you the science, what more do you want?

 

[ppodhajski]

Oxidative stress is also the cause of aging, wrinkles, sagging, brown spots . . .

Yes, it is. Sorry, was there a point to this comment?

 

[Mij]

@ppodhajski

What was your point?

 

[ppodhajski]

@ppodhajski

What was your point?

Ha, what is my point to what? You just made a statement that oxidative stress causes wrinkles. It has no bearing on what I am talking about. Yes, oxidative stress in the skin causes wrinkles, and oxidative stress in the mitochondria causes CFS/ME.

 

[Valentijn]

I can't do all your googling for you, but here is a start:

Oxidative stress levels are raised in chronic fatigue syndrome and are associated with clinical symptoms.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16085177

A correlation does not prove causation, and it would be very inappropriate to jump to conclusions. Since most of us presumably weren't doing anything unusual to cause oxidative stress at illness onset, it also doesn't seem likely to be a factor in causing the disease. Additionally, it is very likely that consistent oxidative stress is the result of other problems, such as immune activation, as has been scientifically established to happen.

Association of abnormal erythrocyte morphology with oxidative stress and inflammation in metabolic syndrome
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S107997961500025X

Metabolic syndrome has nothing to do with ME/SEID. In fact, many of the opposite problems often (but not always) occur in ME/SEID: hypotension, uncontrollable weight loss, normal or low glucose, We are both talking about the CCC, ICC, and/or IOM definitions of ME/SEID, right?

Fibromyalgia and Chronic Fatigue: The Underlying Biology and Related Theoretical Issues
This chapter will focus on inflammatory and oxidative stress pathways and on the neuroendocrine system, which have been more commonly examined. Chronic inflammation, together with raised levels of oxidative stress and mitochondrial dysfunction, has been increasingly associated with the manifestation of symptoms such as pain, fatigue, impaired memory, and depression, which largely characterise at least some patients suffering from CFS and FM.

"Chronic Fatigue" in the title is a great indication that this is someone who doesn't know what they're talking about. And that suspicion is confirmed when they talk about fatigue and depression largely characterizing patients.

 

[ppodhajski]

An correlation does not prove causation, and it would be very inappropriate to jump to conclusions. Since most of us presumably weren't doing anything unusual to cause oxidative stress at illness onset, it also doesn't seem likely to be a factor in causing the disease. Additionally, it is very likely that consistent oxidative stress is the result of other problems, such as immune activation, as has been scientifically established to happen.

Metabolic syndrome has nothing to do with ME/SEID. In fact, many of the opposite problems often (but not always) occur in ME/SEID: hypotension, uncontrollable weight loss, normal glucose, We are both talking about the CCC, ICC, and/or IOM definitions of ME/SEID, right?


"Chronic Fatigue" in the title is a great indication that this is someone who doesn't know what they're talking about. And that suspicion is confirmed when they talk about fatigue and depression largely characterizing patients.

OK, Val,

Do you want me to show you this in someones genes?

If any two people here with the same CFS/ME symptoms can provide their Promethease files I will not only show you the cause, but show you how it might be possible to fix the issue.

I am done talking theory with you, just the facts now. Lets test my theory. That is science after all, yes?

 

[ppodhajski]

"Chronic Fatigue" in the title is a great indication that this is someone who doesn't know what they're talking about. And that suspicion is confirmed when they talk about fatigue and depression largely characterizing patients.

And again, you seem to miss certain parts of sentences. You see what you wrote up there? This si what the article says: " which largely characterise at least some patients suffering from CFS and FM."

You totally ignored where they said "at least some". They did not say it "largely characterizing patients", like you wrote.

Since I do not know how to help you overcome this I am afraid I need to end dialog with you.

Sorry.

 

[Mij]

Ha, what is my point to what? You just made a statement that oxidative stress causes wrinkles. It has no bearing on what I am talking about. Yes, oxidative stress in the skin causes wrinkles, and oxidative stress in the mitochondria causes CFS/ME.

You make many blanket statements, oxidative stress contributes to the pathology, no one knows the "cause" as far as I'm aware.

 

[Valentijn]

And again, you seem to miss certain parts of sentences. You see what you wrote up there? This si what the article says: " which largely characterise at least some patients suffering from CFS and FM."

You totally ignored where they said "at least some". They did not say it "largely characterizing patients", like you wrote.

How can it characterize patients when the supposed characterization doesn't have any connection to the disease? It's a meaningless statement, at best, and badly misrepresentative of ME/SEID in the process.

 

[ppodhajski]

You make many blanket statements, oxidative stress contributes to the pathology, no one knows the "cause" as far as I'm aware.

Is there evidence that oxidative stress does NOT cause ME/CFS? Is there anyone with CFS/ME who does NOT have high levels of reactive oxygen species?

I am making a blanket statement but you are too impatient to look for the truth to what I am saying.

Again, the proof is in that treating what I see stops the symptoms of CFS/ME.

And how much research do you need to see? what if I told you I work in two ways to reduce oxidative stress? Lowering the cause and assisting the removal of reactive oxygen species. What if I told you I see this in the genes? What if you gave me your genetics and I showed you?

Chronic fatigue syndrome: assessment of increased oxidative stress and altered muscle excitability in response to incremental exercise
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2796.2005.01452.x/full

Blood parameters indicative of oxidative stress are associated with symptom expression in chronic fatigue syndrome
http://www.maneyonline.com/doi/abs/10.1179/rer.2000.5.1.35

Lipid Replacement and Antioxidant Nutritional Therapy for Restoring Mitochondrial Function and Reducing Fatigue in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Other Fatiguing Illnesses
http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J092v13n01_06

Effect of Natural and Synthetic Antioxidants in a Mouse Model of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/109662002763003366

 

[ppodhajski]

How can it characterize patients when the supposed characterization doesn't have any connection to the disease? It's a meaningless statement, at best, and badly misrepresentative of ME/SEID in the process.

OK, thank you Valentijn. Best wishes.

 

[Mij]

Blood parameters indicative of oxidative stress are associated with symptom expression in chronic fatigue syndrome
http://www.maneyonline.com/doi/abs/10.1179/rer.2000.5.1.35

"These data suggest that oxidative stress due to excess free radical formation is a contributor to the pathology of CFS and was associated with symptom presentation."

Lipid Replacement and Antioxidant Nutritional Therapy for Restoring Mitochondrial Function and Reducing Fatigue in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Other Fatiguing Illnesses

"The results indicate that LRT plus antioxidants can significantly reduce moderate to severe chronic fatigue and restore mitochondrial function. Dietary use of unoxidized membrane lipids plus antioxidants is recommended for patients with moderate to severe chronic fatigue."

This is non specific to ME/SEID. They are talking about fatigue in general. Many of us have tried this and we are not cured.

Lipid Replacement and Antioxidant Nutritional Therapy for Restoring Mitochondrial Function and Reducing Fatigue in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Other Fatiguing Illnesses

"Conclusions.  The response of CFS patients to incremental exercise associates a lengthened and accentuated oxidative stress together with marked alterations of the muscle membrane excitability. These two objective signs of muscle dysfunction are sufficient to explain muscle pain and postexertional malaise reported by our patients."

I don't see any of the links you provided pointing to the cause.

 

[Mij]

Effect of Natural and Synthetic Antioxidants in a Mouse Model of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome

"The findings strongly suggest that oxidative stress plays a significant role in the pathophysiology of CFS and that antioxidants could be useful in the treatment of CFS."

Playing a "role" does not equate cause.

 

[ppodhajski]

I don't see any of the links you provided pointing to the cause.

They all point to the cause, they just do not point to the cure. Don't you see the direction all of these articles point to? Oxidative stress is exhibited in ALL ME/CFS patents? What do YOU think causes it?

I know why LRT might help but does not cure. But UNTIL I SEE YOUR GENETICS this will not make sense to you.

Why do you ignore that I say I cured my CFS and someone else's? Is that just not registering?