Creepy posts by James Coyne to Jeanette Burmeister

[MEPatient345]

not merely Professor James Coyne is giving them a hard time by calling them names on social media.

Referring to sexual abuse as being a positive liberating experience, actually referencing sex with a 14 year old as an example of this, is absolutely heinous and has nothing to do w ME politics, clearly.

And some of the people he called names on social media were patients.

Finally, looks like he’s been lying / misrepresenting his University affiliations for years.

All in all I’d say this is very well deserved. Time for all these old men behaving badly to be called out, and go away.

 

[Hip]

actually referencing sex with a 14 year old as an example of this, is absolutely heinous

You say the mere act of referencing sex with a 14 year old is heinous? So the fact I have referenced it here also makes me heinous?

 

[MEPatient345]

What? I’m not sure what you are getting at.

I’m talking about what Coyne wrote in his blog. He referenced sex with a child as an example of what he thinks is a positive liberating experience. So, there’s no way what he wrote could be misconstrued or misinterpreted, or framed by people out to get him. He did this to himself, and is no ones victim here.

 

[Murph]

Coyne's been on our side because he doesn't care what people think. That's worked in our favour for a while but it wont' necessarily for ever.

As we travel this path we'll have help for a while from some people but they won't all be useful forever.

Coyne's something of a loose cannon (and frankly although he's on our side I find him altogether less than humble, and really rather too certain about things). We should accept his support but not hitch our reptutation to his.

 

[Hip]

I’m talking about what Coyne wrote in his blog. He referenced sex with a child as an example of what he thinks is a positive liberating experience.

No, I think you have misunderstood what Coyne wrote, as it seems did the silly psychologists of the above letter. If these psychologists are really that incompetent, no wonder they are of no use to society other than to make up these nonsense somatoform and biopsychosocial theories of illness that save insurance companies billions on disability payouts that can now be withheld from sick ME/CFS patients.

Why don't you read the blog in question? Coyne points out that there may be scientific errors inherent in the use of the Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACE) checklist, which he says is widely used in making claims about the causal influence of childhood trauma on mental and physical health problems.

Coyne refers to the ACE question: "Did an adult or person at least 5 years older than you ever touch or fondle you or have you touch their body in a sexual way?"

If respondents answer yes to that ACE question, then it is assumed they were sexually abused (in the sense that the answer is added to the total ACE questionnaire score). But Coyne points out this is a flawed assumption, because you could have for example a 14 year old and a 20 year old who were in an emotional and sexual relationship, and it could be a very nice and positive relationship, which means that there was no trauma or emotional abuse. So that ACE question is flawed, that's what Coyne is saying.

I don't expect the silly psychologists who wrote the letter to understand. But hopefully you do.



EDITED TO ADD: Of course nobody is condoning a relationship between a 14 and 20 year old. That should be clear. Coyne is not condoning it, and I am certainly not.

But such relationships do occur, and their effects are subject to scientific psychological analysis.

 

[MEPatient345]

Are you serious? Surely you know that a 14 year old child is not emotionally or physically equipped to be in a relationship with a 20 year old, or to give consent to a sexual situation, which is mostly illegal depending on where in the world they are. If someone cannot consent — it is abuse. The child may not know they are being abused, and may classify it in their mind as a consensual “positive” relationship, but that doesn’t mean it’s not abuse. To discuss it in the way that you and Coyne are shows a complete lack of awareness around issues of consent (and frankly basic human morality). I’m pretty flabbergasted right now to even be having this conversation.

 

[Gingergrrl]

Are you serious? Surely you know that a 14 year old child is not emotionally or physically equipped to be in a relationship with a 20 year old, or to give consent to a sexual situation, which is mostly illegal depending on where in the world they are. If someone cannot consent — it is abuse.

@Silencio, you are correct, and I have not read this entire thread but in my state if a 14 y/o was having sex with a 20 y/o it would be considered "statutory rape" and would be reportable by anyone who is a mandated reporter. I do not know the law in other countries.

 

[Murph]

yes @Hip this is widely agreed to be rape

>you could have for example a 14 year old and a 20 year old who were in an emotional and sexual relationship, and it could be a very nice and positive relationship, which means that there was no trauma or emotional abuse. So that ACE question is flawed, that's what Coyne is saying.

We know a lot more about teenage brain development now and the presumption that consent can be granted in this circumstance is not supported by the courts. Coyne is dangerously out of line.

You can hold your own view about the law but for a psych to admit they see as positive cases the law sees as rape is concerning.

 

[MEPatient345]

because you could have for example a 14 year old and a 20 year old who were in an emotional and sexual relationship, and it could be a very nice and positive relationship, which means that there was no trauma or emotional abuse.

Making statements like this should be grounds for getting kicked off this site. Given that there could be children on here reading this, and that we have a member expressing agreement with this statement.

 

[Hip]

Are you serious? Surely you know that a 14 year old child is not emotionally or physically equipped to be in a relationship with a 20 year old, or to give consent to a sexual situation, which is mostly illegal depending on where in the world they are. If someone cannot consent — it is abuse. The child may not know they are being abused, and may classify it in their mind as a consensual “positive” relationship, but that doesn’t mean it’s not abuse. To discuss it in the way that you and Coyne are shows a complete lack of awareness around issues of consent (and frankly basic human morality). I’m pretty flabbergasted right now to even be having this conversation.

And I was rather hoping ME/CFS patients might be a bit more understanding than the none-too-bright psychologists of the letter, but reading your response, alas no luck. So let's try to explain carefully:

First of all, you need to distinguish between legal and moral codes, and the actual psychological circumstances of such a relationship. Whether you or your society think that a relationship between a 14 and 20 year old is right or wrong is not relevant to the scientific and psychological question of whether an emotional trauma arises from such a relationship. If you cannot logically separate these two issues in your mind, then you've failed at the starting line.

If a 20 year old has a relationship with a 14 year old, you may if you wish class that as immoral or illegal. (If you do, that's usually a parochial reflection of the country and culture you are from, because other cultures have different moral and legal views. For example, in some Islamic cultures, females can marry at 9). But rightly or wrongly, such relationships exist, and the question is whether there is always actual emotional damage and abuse, or whether such relationships might sometimes be relatively nice for the participants, and not lead to emotional trauma.

And let me spell it out clearly for you: nobody, is condoning a relationship between a 14 and 20 year old. You seem to think people are condoning such relationships, but that's because you have got the wrong end of the stick, and you have totally misunderstood the situation. So these relationships are not being condoned. But like it or not, such relationships have occurred and will occur. The question then is whether such relationships always lead to emotional trauma or not. This is a scientific question, not a moral question.

Have you now grasped the scientific nature of this situation and question?

 

[Gingergrrl]

And I was rather hoping ME/CFS patients might be a bit more understanding than the none-too-bright psychologists of the letter, but reading your response, alas no luck.

I don't know if Coyne is a psychologist in the US (have not read the whole thread) but if he is, and he is condoning a sexual relationship between a 14 y/o and a 20 y/o, than he is endorsing something illegal. He would be a mandated reporter, along with all therapists, doctors, nurses, social workers, teachers, etc, and I find it strange to call him "none to bright" if he does not know this or if he knows but does not care.

Whether you or your society think that a relationship between a 14 and 20 year old is right or wrong is not relevant to the scientific and psychological question of whether an emotional trauma arises from such a relationship.

It actually is extremely relevant b/c a 14 y/o child (at least in the US) cannot give legal consent for sex with an adult. They could be taking photos as a child actor or model and the photographer in their 20's could convince them that the situation is perfectly fine but it is still illegal and the photos would still be child porn. They might not even realize that they were traumatized until many years later. I find it strange to even be debating this!

For example, in some Islamic cultures, females can marry at 9).

This is true that it occurs but the percent that die in child birth or shortly after is extremely high as a nine year old's body is not built for pregnancy and childbirth.

But like it or not, such relationships have occurred and will occur.

Of course it occurs, but it is still illegal and a mandated reporter should not be promoting otherwise (and hopefully no one should).

 

[Hip]

I find it strange to call him "none to bright" if he does not know this or if he knows but does not care.

I am not referring to Prof Coyne, who I think does a great job, but rather to the British psychologists of the letter linked to in this post, who first brought this matter up of Coyne's example of a relationship between a 14 and 20 year old. These none to bright psychologists incorrectly think that Prof Coyne is condoning such a relationship, which he is not. And of course neither am I.

It actually is extremely relevant b/c a 14 y/o child (at least in the US) cannot give legal consent for sex with an adult. They could be taking photos as a child actor or model and the photographer in their 20's could convince them that the situation is perfectly fine but it is still illegal and the photos would still be child porn. They might not even realize that they were traumatized until many years later. I find it strange to even be debating this!

I think like others here you are not understanding the difference between law and emotion.

The legal age of consent has little bearing on whether a 14 year old is going to be emotionally traumatized by a relationship with a 20 year old. Let's say for example they were traumatized by such a relationship: would changing age of consent to 14 remove that trauma? Or would being in a country like Portugal where the age of consent is 14 prevent that trauma? Very unlikely. So the legal situation is not very relevant as to whether such a relationship creates a trauma or not. It's an emotional issue, not really a legal one.



I think those forum members here who are saying that Coyne (or myself for that matter) is condoning breaking the age of consent law need to carefully rethink, because your words are bordering on libel. You have got the wrong end of the stick, and have misunderstood what has been said.

 

[JES]

Are you serious? Surely you know that a 14 year old child is not emotionally or physically equipped to be in a relationship with a 20 year old, or to give consent to a sexual situation, which is mostly illegal depending on where in the world they are. If someone cannot consent — it is abuse. The child may not know they are being abused, and may classify it in their mind as a consensual “positive” relationship, but that doesn’t mean it’s not abuse. To discuss it in the way that you and Coyne are shows a complete lack of awareness around issues of consent (and frankly basic human morality). I’m pretty flabbergasted right now to even be having this conversation.

You are right about the "mostly illegal part", but the rest of your post is speculative. You say that a 14 year old is necessarily not emotionally or physically equipped to be in a relationship with a 20 year old, but we know that people reach puberty and develop physically at around ages 10-16, so the first part of your statement is certainly not always true. I would say they may or may not be ready. And regarding emotionally, we also know that the brain and identity develops at vastly different rate depending on the person. A teenager might mentally be even a couple of years ahead or behind their peers, so a 16 year old may be on the level of a 14 year old, and vice versa. So someone at age 16 could still be mentally at age of 14 and get traumatized - it's not black and white.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that laws should be changed or anything, they probably are quite well adjusted in most countries. I just don't understand the fuss about Coyne's post and I can see his point about the ACE questionnaire needing revision. It's the same old story about people on social media getting offended when someone dosesn't agree with their opinion. Just because they get offended doesn't mean they are right.

 

[Gingergrrl]

I am not referring to Prof Coyne, who I think does a great job, but rather to the British psychologists of the letter linked to in this post, who first brought this matter up of Coyne's example of a relationship between a 14 and 20 year old.

This is an old thread and I don't know the history of Prof Coyne (and admittedly am not familiar with most of the names of the professors in the UK as well as I should be) but from that letter alone, I agree with it unless I am totally missing something?

 

[Mel9]

I don't know if Coyne is a psychologist in the US (have not read the whole thread) but if he is, and he is condoning a sexual relationship between a 14 y/o and a 20 y/o, than he is endorsing something illegal. He would be a mandated reporter, along with all therapists, doctors, nurses, social workers, teachers, etc, and I find it strange to call him "none to bright" if he does not know this or if he knows but does not care.



It actually is extremely relevant b/c a 14 y/o child (at least in the US) cannot give legal consent for sex with an adult. They could be taking photos as a child actor or model and the photographer in their 20's could convince them that the situation is perfectly fine but it is still illegal and the photos would still be child porn. They might not even realize that they were traumatized until many years later. I find it strange to even be debating this!



This is true that it occurs but the percent that die in child birth or shortly after is extremely high as a nine year old's body is not built for pregnancy and childbirth.



Of course it occurs, but it is still illegal and a mandated reporter should not be promoting otherwise (and hopefully no one should).

But Coyne is 'condoning' no such thing

 

[Mel9]

Making statements like this should be grounds for getting kicked off this site. Given that there could be children on here reading this, and that we have a member expressing agreement with this statement.

That attitude does seem a bit immature. You may be deliberately misreading what Hip has said?

 

[Gingergrrl]

But Coyne is 'condoning' no such thing

Sorry and I will read the whole thread before commenting further b/c I must be misunderstanding something from the letter. I won't be able to read it tonight so won't comment further at this time.

 

[MEPatient345]

Yes, Coyne is actually saying that sex between a 14 year old and a 20 year old, otherwise know as “rape” could be a liberating positive experience. That is his actual argument in order to make the claim that the question and it’s ability to diagnose sexual assault is inadequate. That is condoning it and normalizing it.

This is not an anthropological scientific study, as Hip seems to be suggesting in his extremely condescending post directed at me and my supposed limited understand of science. It’s a questionnaire used in a clinical setting by a qualified doctor in the United States to find out if a child has been abused by the societal, clinical and legal standards of the United States. If a child has had sex with an adult, they have been abused by those clinical standards — and raped I believe by US legal standards, and the adult would be considered a pedophile. Then that child would need counseling and support.

I’m not going to respond any more on this thread. The fact that this idea is garnering support from multiple members is alarming to me and should be alarming to this community. I think we do have teenage members, and by the laws of averages we likely have survivors of sexual assault as members who might find this triggering.

 

[Sushi]

Let's please confine this discussion to the opening topic and avoid commenting on individual posters, but rather on the content generated by James Coyne.