Choline on the Brain? A Guide to Choline in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
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Could antidepressants cure some cases?

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by eric_gladiator, Nov 6, 2017.

  1. eric_gladiator

    eric_gladiator Senior Member

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    Let's suppose that my cfs or unknown disease has been the result of long periods of stress, exhaustion accompanied by an unbridled rhythm of life. So if that were the origin of this great evil, the same with an antidepressant of the many that there is could be achieved improve the problem I have seen cases where people say they have healed or remitted much of the problem with antidepressants. I do not know if this in my case could be a cure since until now someone who tried to make me worse, but if there was one that would improve me? being treated maybe in my case of a biochemical disorder could be there at my fingertips the cure
     
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  2. Countrygirl

    Countrygirl Senior Member

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    If only it were that easy, @eric_gladiator . If it were, it would mean you didn't have ME, but maybe a fatiguing condition that might be included in the UK's Oxford's definition of CFS, a definition that needs to be retired as it has led to so much confusion and misinformation.

    Are you familiar with the diagnostic guidelines of the disease as listed in the ICC or CCC?

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2796.2011.02428.x/full

    It is a serious multi system disease that cannot be cured by anti-depressants.

    There are a number of fatiguing illness that have been lumped under the term CFS, but ME is a discrete disease and much more serious. It is not about fatigue, but is a very debilitating neuro immune disease. Apologies if you already know this, but your post suggested maybe you may not.
     
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  3. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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    When I first had ME in the 80's anti-depressant drugs were used to try and "treat" ME and the theory was that they had an effect on the immune system. I was told by the doctor who prescribed them that AD's were noted as they were developed to be helping people with allergies. It was not a cure but something doctors would try as there was little in the way of treatment.

    It was under this understanding that I took an AD and it was a disaster. My stomach was wrecked and I was so weak and shaky in the morning I was fainting. My day was a daze. I was told that these side effects would go over weeks but they got worse. None of my ME symptoms were helped.

    In the 00's I tried another AD in this case to try and treat the severe pain I was under. Same again. My gut never recovered from this. Pain wasn't helped.

    As depression is now being looked at in some cases as a physical inflammation there may be some truth in what I was originally told. If this is true and some AD's do have an immune modulating effect then I must have a different kind of immune system problem.

    If ME was cured by AD's then we would know by know as many thousands of us have taken them.
     
  4. eric_gladiator

    eric_gladiator Senior Member

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    @Countrygirl


    I apologize if this is interpreted as if it were something psychosomatic that I do not really believe it. But what I think is that in my case and in many cases there could be a very big biochemical change due to a prolonged stress. Let's think for a moment that the brain, like the rest of the body, is also injured and more when it is an organ. that fulfills so many functions, imagine that you strain your arms exercising every day, that eventually ends in a lesion of the arms .. because the same thing I want to think about what happens with the brain and as a result it can result in this situation, this alone would be a factor of many
     
    Countrygirl likes this.
  5. Countrygirl

    Countrygirl Senior Member

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    Prolonged stress, with its impact on the immune system, may well act as a trigger for the disease, one of many: vaccinations; serious injury; exposure to toxins such as OPs; various infections. So I agree with you there.

    But once the disease is triggered, I think most people have found that ADs have not been of help, apart from to encourage sleep and maybe mitigate pain. ADs are often badly tolerated by us, of course. It is AVs and even ARVs that proving helpful for those fortunate enough to acquire them.
     
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  6. CFSTheBear

    CFSTheBear Senior Member

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    It's something I've often pondered, particularly because there seem to be a few subtypes here.

    - People who say that antidepressants have helped them, a lot
    - People who say that antidepressants help a little
    - People who say they're awful and caused really bad reactions.

    I used antidepressants prior (years) to getting ill, and while they "worked" for what I was taking them for, they weren't pleasant at all to start with. I've been offered antidepressants several times over the course of my ME/CFS and have refused on the basis that they feel like quite scary powerful drugs, and ones which had a distinct effect when I was healthy, never mind how weak my body is now.

    So I'm in two minds. Maybe they can help, maybe they can be bad. As ever, it's a crapshoot with ME/CFS.
     
    Countrygirl likes this.
  7. notmyself

    notmyself Senior Member

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    In my opinion there are many health problems that can be caused by excesive stress,anxiety or other mental disorders. There are ways to treat this issues, antidepressants not being the first choice..Themain thing that clearly separate ME/CFS from other health condition is PEM..If you ahve PEM you have ME ,wich is multi-sistematic ,involving not just the brain..
     
    Dechi likes this.
  8. eric_gladiator

    eric_gladiator Senior Member

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    @ukxmrv

    unfortunately I happened the same as you. I was in an ad when I got sick that just caused me quite strong symptoms, I guess I did not tolerate that ad well and that's why the symptoms. My mistake was to continue with the symptoms despite believing that disappear with the days until I feel sick enough to not be able to do sports. Years later another doctor convinced me that taking another type of ad that would improve, error! my symptoms became more of a hell in my life .. Now you will think, if you felt bad because you have that doubt that they could do the opposite? for that reason because you can never be sure of everything until you have tried it
     
  9. eric_gladiator

    eric_gladiator Senior Member

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    @Countrygirl


    Exactly in my case I think it was that, I was always healthy but my biggest problem was the anxiety and depression experienced very intensely for years, that and maybe some drug that altered my immune system.
     
  10. eric_gladiator

    eric_gladiator Senior Member

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    @jstash


    The symptoms you experience are unrelated to the antidepressant? I want to say that they are not side effects but are effects of the disease that triggers the announcement. Have you tried anxiolytics?
     
  11. CFSTheBear

    CFSTheBear Senior Member

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    Despite being multilingual, I regret that Spanish is not one of them :D
     
  12. eric_gladiator

    eric_gladiator Senior Member

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    @notmyself

    If you mean that he does something that he used to do with great ease and then he is paying for it all day, then if that is my case
     
  13. eric_gladiator

    eric_gladiator Senior Member

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    @jstash

    I'm sorry I did not notice the fault:lol:


    The symptoms you experience are unrelated to the antidepressant? I want to say that they are not side effects but are effects of the disease that triggers the announcement. Have you tried anxiolytics?
     
  14. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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    I've never had a drug that made me feel worse before I felt better. Sometimes we just need to stop flogging a dead horse.

    If there were many ME patients telling us that a certain AD made their ME better (and not just one or two) then I'd look further into the group.

    There was also a paper somewhere to say that a group of people with CFS had high serotonin so that would tend to reinforce the experience of those with a bad reaction to the drug.

    With so many potential treatments to try we can't keep on one direction and waste our time and make our health worse.
     
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  15. raghav

    raghav Senior Member

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    I would like to mention that Antidepressants have helped me a lot. Initially I was bedridden from the fatigue. I was then put on Mirtazapine, which worsened my mental symptoms. Then the psychiatrist added duloxetine, which was of some help. Then I started reading pubmed articles and literature on antidepressants and found that Milnacipran is unique in the sense that it blocks the reuptake of Norepinephrine and serotonin in the ration 3:1, which is supposed to be the natural ratio in healthy people.

    So I asked my psychiatrist and he gave me the go ahead to try Milnacipran. It brought about a remarkable change in my energy levels. Previously I would feel like fainting from exhaustion even if I walked for 10 minutes or stood still for 5 minutes. I would not say it has helped with my PEM. But it helped me move around in my home. I take Milnacipran 50 mg twice a day. Only after Milnacipran was added was I able to realize the benefits of armodafinil. Without Milnacipran I cannot tolerate armodafinil.

    So I would say there is definitely a subset of ME patients who benefit from AD. BTW I take Ashwagandha 150 mg for my PEM and allergy symptoms. With Ashwagandha my PEM has come down to just an overnight sleep. Of course the next day I will wake up late in the afternoon.

    So I would definitely recomment giving milnacipran a try in consultation with your doctor.
     
    lior likes this.
  16. Jesse2233

    Jesse2233 Senior Member

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  17. eric_gladiator

    eric_gladiator Senior Member

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    @ukxmrv @raghav @Jesse2233


    only and heard from a couple of them and the truth is that I am very surprised by the change although I still have serious doubts because in my case amitriptyline and duloxetine made me worse, but I keep asking myself if with others it could be the other way around. Of course it is a very big risk in my case and I do not know if with a small dose I would avoid that risk
     
  18. wastwater

    wastwater Senior Member

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    Those ME cases might of been misdiagnosed and that's why they improved maybe
     
  19. eric_gladiator

    eric_gladiator Senior Member

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    @wastwater

    that would also be another clear option this
     

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