Constant tingling.. Maybe it is not Potassium deficiency?

[Victronix]

Victronix;

Hi, The chloride in potassium-chloride may help absorption for people with low stomach acid. Some people take hydrochloric acid supplements too. Some milder digestives are; lemon juice diluted in water, and apple cider vinegar diluted in water.

Thanks, I probably do have low stomach acid but haven't yet tried to deal with it, as I can only deal with so many things at once, so those suggestions are appreciated. Should I take lemon juice in water with meals?

 

[Crux]

Thanks, I probably do have low stomach acid but haven't yet tried to deal with it, as I can only deal with so many things at once, so those suggestions are appreciated. Should I take lemon juice in water with meals?

Hi Victronix;
I think a typical recipe is: juice of 1/2 lemon, added to 4-8 oz. of water, 1/2 hour before meals. Some recipes say warm water.
http://www.20somethingallergies.com/healing-digestion-digestive-tonics/

Here's a link to a discussion about vinegar for low stomach acid:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/vinegar-for-low-stomach-acid.15712/

 

[Victronix]

Hi Victronix;
I think a typical recipe is: juice of 1/2 lemon, added to 4-8 oz. of water, 1/2 hour before meals. Some recipes say warm water.
http://www.20somethingallergies.com/healing-digestion-digestive-tonics/

Here's a link to a discussion about vinegar for low stomach acid:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/vinegar-for-low-stomach-acid.15712/

Thanks!

 

[Calathea]

You should not take potassium if you have any kind of kidney problem including a urinary tract infection because you will have trouble excreting it and it can cause a heart attack.

Erm, one of the treatments doctors give out for UTIs is potassium citrate in syrup form. It's meant to soothe the bladder. Can you explain more about this?

 

[Lotus97]

Some people find betaine HCL at the beginning of a meal helpful for low stomach acid. Betaine HCL is supposed to be the same as TMG although I've heard mixed things about whether or not it actually increases methylation like TMG does.

Also, would taking potassium gluconate at meals make a difference since theoretically a person would be producing more stomach acid at meals to digest the food rather than taking it on an empty stomach?

 

[triffid113]

All I know is that when the kidney is not functioning well it cannot excrete potassium...my father had poor kidneys for 20 years and then wound up in dialysis. He had to be on a low potassium diet for years. I never actually had a UTI apparently. If a UTI compromises kidney function (and it can RUIN your kidneys so I'd guess it does) then it is the kidney's function to get rid of potassium and it could build up. In my case this can happen because I get hypothyroid every winter now from cold, dry air setting off my allergies and hypothyroid lowers GFR (kidney filtration rate).

----------

Betaine HCL is not AT ALL the same as TMG. Sometimes it is mislabelled as the same. It is NOT. Betaine HCL is stomach acid and it will burn your innards if you don't need it or get too much. It will not improve your methylation. TMG is benign. It DOES improve methylation. It cannot be used instead of mB12 and mfolate however, but only in conjunction. It's primary benefit is prevent surges of homocysteine after meals (because it is a faster route to get rid of homocysteine than mB12+mfolate (1 chemical reaction vs. 2). In people who have tried to use it exclusively, they seem to get brain swelling. This may be because the TMG pathway may not exist in brain tissue. The entire methylation pathway does not exist in all tissue and specifically in brain tissue, so you need to supply all the B's, no shortcuts. The amount of betaine eaten by diet by those whose diets contain the highest amounts of betaine is 2g/day. 2g/day does not cause ME any intestinal distress. I take Soloray 1g tablets.

 

[Lotus97]

I know people who have low stomach acid that say betaine hcl has benefited them a lot. Except for beets, quinoa, wheat bran, and one or two other things, most foods are quite low in betaine. I can't imagine most people getting nearly 2g/day.

 

[dannybex]

Betaine HCL is not AT ALL the same as TMG. Sometimes it is mislabelled as the same. It is NOT. Betaine HCL is stomach acid and it will burn your innards if you don't need it or get too much. It will not improve your methylation. TMG is benign. It DOES improve methylation. It cannot be used instead of mB12 and mfolate however, but only in conjunction. It's primary benefit is prevent surges of homocysteine after meals (because it is a faster route to get rid of homocysteine than mB12+mfolate (1 chemical reaction vs. 2). In people who have tried to use it exclusively, they seem to get brain swelling. This may be because the TMG pathway may not exist in brain tissue. The entire methylation pathway does not exist in all tissue and specifically in brain tissue, so you need to supply all the B's, no shortcuts. The amount of betaine eaten by diet by those whose diets contain the highest amounts of betaine is 2g/day. 2g/day does not cause ME any intestinal distress. I take Soloray 1g tablets.

Okay, well I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Nothing is 'benign', even water can kill. As for TMG, there are several posts on PR, and this, by a doc who specializes in methylation talking about how it can in some cases really mess with methyl-b12:

"Our clinic has repeatedly documented (with rare exception) that the use of TMG blocks the desired effects of methyl-B12: cognition, language, socialization, etc., and it is not until TMG is discontinued that the child’s potential for cognition, language, socialization, etc. is able to realized to a significant degree. "
http://www.californiahyperbarics.com/autism21.html

You're correct that betaine HCL is not 'exactly' the same as betaine anhydrous (TMG), but it's also not the same as betaine found in foods. Betaine HCL is not "stomach acid", it's betaine with a chloride molecule attached -- basically a substitute for actual chyme, or stomach acid. So naturally, eating betaine (TMG) will not produce gastric issues.

Also, for those with possible oxalate issues, forms of glycine like TMG and DMG may make oxalate problems worse.
At least that's my understanding...

 

[Jarod]

@ Crux
Yah, it seems that it is indicative of some sort of nutrient deficiency. It is just a matter of trying to figure out which one! I try to balance my Zinc/Copper, but it is a little difficult to be sure you're achieving that without testing. I eat a fair amount of liver and dark chocolate, but not tons of Zinc containing foods like shellfish. Tho, I do supp with 50 mg Zinc 2 times per week. Have you had any nutrient/mineral testing done that you would recommend?

Have you tried stopping the zinc by any chance? I was having some unusual tingling in the feet and stopped taking the zinc which seemed to help.

Thanks for the tips on potassium people. Especially the potassium chloride.

 

[mominmo]

I went off all methyl supplements and was using a low-level B supplement that had folic acid. I continued having the burning/tingling sensation in my mouth, hands, and feet that started when I began the protocol. I revisited the idea that I have donut hole deficiency and realized that the protein powder and bars I eat on a regular basis have added folic acid. If I have the MTHFR mutation and can't convert folic acid, I reasoned that this could explain my symptoms. I just ordered a 23andme kit to see.

I then decided to try the Active B12/methyl folate supplement recommended by Dr. Ben. He recommends starting with 1/2 tab, but since I've had bad responses, I decided to do 1/4 tab. It took just two days for the severe hypokalemia symptoms to start: excessive thirst, frequent urination, muscle twitching, palpitations, depressed mood, and worst of all GI troubles and malabsorption (going 5 times a day). I have had 1300mg of Potassium Chloride already today and it has helped some. But it is really gagging me. I added 1/4 tsp to V8 and to a flavored water drink and had to force it down. I've had so much of it in an effort to manage the hypokalemia. The potassium gluconate doesn't seem to do anything for me. I was adding 500mg of it at a time to beverages. I will try some more again today, but have little hope of effect. The hardest part for me is knowing that I have had hypokalemia for 3 months of supplementing now. It sounds like people have to supplement with it for YEARS if they stay on B12.

I'm beginning to wonder if B12 and potassium are agonists. No matter how long I take B12 & folate, I will have hypokalemia. For some reason, with my body it's severe. I feel like it's ruining my life! When I take it, I don't have the energy to exercise, I get bloated, and I'm depressed and cranky. I'm wondering if I can take it once a week or even once a month to keep myself going. Honestly, I feel pretty good when I don't take anything. I would prefer to have the neurological damage that's been done be healed, but if I had to live with the status quo and just have no more damage, I would prefer it to the hypokalemia. (Just to reiterate: I don't have CFS. Neuro problems are my primary symptom, though what made me consider B12 deficiency was a new, profound fatigue, hair loss, shortness of breath, etc. Everything is better except I still have some hair loss which I understand can take a long time to address). Since there are people who manage OK with once-a-month B12 shots, I wonder why I couldn't take oral B12 once a month? I would take 5000 B12 since my reaction doesn't seem to be dose dependent.

Because I've had no blood work, I would like to see where I'm at in a month with no supplementation. At least I'll see what my levels would look like if I supplemented monthly. I'm open to your thoughts, but I want you to understand that my reaction is serious. It's not just mildly irritating or I could stick it out!

 

[Jarod]

Hi mominmo

Just noticed a video with Rich Van K. He thinks low stomach acid can cause issues. So maybe the "NoSalt" has something else in it that is affecting our stomach acid?

Just a thought.

Video LINK @17 minutes

 

[Lotus97]

mominmo
So you were taking 200 mcg methylfolate and 250 mcg methylcobalamin from 1/4 tablet. Were you taking those sublingually? And were you taking any B12 in addition to that? And were you taking any niacin? Niacin slows down methylation which can be useful for people who have strong reactions to the supplements.

Some people need to start out with less than 200 mcg of methylfolate. What I'd recommend first is just take B12 without methylfolate and make sure you can tolerate that. Then what you can do is crush up 1/4 tablet of methylfolate and wet a toothpick to pick up a portion of that powder. Another option is mixing the powder with water and drinking a portion of the water.

 

[Lotus97]

Hi mominmo

Just noticed a video with Rich Van K. He thinks low stomach acid can cause issues. So maybe the "NoSalt" has something else in it that is affecting our stomach acid?

Just a thought.

Video LINK @17 minutes

NoSalt has sodium and potassium chloride which is why it's helpful for people with low stomach acid.

 

[mominmo]

@Lotis, yes that's what I was taking. Four years ago I thought I was having low stomach acid issues because I had terrible heartburn which I don't have anymore. It's possible, but I've had an endoscopy to rule out an ulcer which suggests I don't have H pylori which would explain the low stomach acid.

I can definitely try taking just B12 in minute amounts. I guess what I'm wondering though is why it's required to take it every day--especially since it gives me such problems. It seems obvious that I have a B12 deficiency. If I wait a month, I can get a blood draw and see what my level is and also iron. Prior to my energy crash, I had been taking supplemental iodine because I thought I was potentially hypothyroid. I think I induced hypothyroidism that way and that explains why I felt so awful three months ago. I need a thyroid panel too.

I would love to have a neurologist who is experienced in treating this, but I've had such horrible experiences with doctors that I'm in a bind. I think I will have a physician we know order the initial blood work and then hopefully an MD/naturopath in my area will feel like he can manage my care. I always get frustrated because I feel like I know more than the doctors do. Thanks so much for taking the time to answer me. The low potassium makes me feel discouraged even though there's nothing that depressing happening.

 

[Lotus97]

@Lotis, yes that's what I was taking. Four years ago I thought I was having low stomach acid issues because I had terrible heartburn which I don't have anymore. It's possible, but I've had an endoscopy to rule out an ulcer which suggests I don't have H pylori which would explain the low stomach acid.

The stomach acid thing was in response to Jarod's post, but he tagged you in that post so I guess it was kind of confusing.

I can definitely try taking just B12 in minute amounts. I guess what I'm wondering though is why it's required to take it every day--especially since it gives me such problems. It seems obvious that I have a B12 deficiency.

No. I was saying take the methylfolate in minute amounts. Since you're probably going to need high doses of B12 (if you do indeed have a B12 deficiency) you are going to have a harder time tolerating methylfolate. Even if you were taking low amounts of B12 you might have a hard time with methylfolate. Most people can tolerate at least 200 mcg of methylfolate, but I've heard from several people who can't. But how do you know you have a B12 deficiency and not CFS/ME? There are people with CFS/ME who have neuropathy. The symptoms overlap.

 

[mominmo]

The stomach acid thing was in response to Jarod's post, but he tagged you in that post so I guess it was kind of confusing.

No. I was saying take the methylfolate in minute amounts. Since you're probably going to need high doses of B12 (if you do indeed have a B12 deficiency) you are going to have a harder time tolerating methylfolate. Even if you were taking low amounts of B12 you might have a hard time with methylfolate. Most people can tolerate at least 200 mcg of methylfolate, but I've heard from several people who can't. But how do you know you have a B12 deficiency and not CFS/ME? There are people with CFS/ME who have neuropathy. The symptoms overlap.

I guess I'm wondering about needing high doses of B12 (especially daily) when many people do fine with monthly injections of B12. I've already had a LOT of B12 for the past 3 months. I don't know for SURE that I have a B12 deficiency since I haven't had blood tests. I have never suspected CFS because I first had the neuropathy 5 years ago and only recently had significant fatigue. Honestly, when I'm not taking anything to cause too much methylation, my energy level is fine now.

One thing I don't understand...if hypokalemia is the result of a lot of blood cell formation, why would that process continue for so long? I thought that would be finished in 6-8 weeks.

 

[Shootingpain]

If you are experiencing shooting pain or tingles on your feet and hands, then i totally recommend NervX360, 3 colleagues of mine swear by it. It works for me sometimes, and it definitely helps reduce the pain at night before I go to sleep. Give it a try, it might work well for you

 

[Victronix]

The idea that hypokalemia is due to blood cell formation is a hypothesis. There are other hypotheses on here. My feeling is that genetics play a role.

 

[girlfromeurope]

I then decided to try the Active B12/methyl folate supplement recommended by Dr. Ben. He recommends starting with 1/2 tab, but since I've had bad responses, I decided to do 1/4 tab. It took just two days for the severe hypokalemia symptoms to start: excessive thirst, frequent urination, muscle twitching, palpitations, depressed mood, and worst of all GI troubles and malabsorption (going 5 times a day). I have had 1300mg of Potassium Chloride already today and it has helped some. But it is really gagging me. I added 1/4 tsp to V8 and to a flavored water drink and had to force it down. I've had so much of it in an effort to manage the hypokalemia. The potassium gluconate doesn't seem to do anything for me. I was adding 500mg of it at a time to beverages. I will try some more again today, but have little hope of effect. The hardest part for me is knowing that I have had hypokalemia for 3 months of supplementing now. It sounds like people have to supplement with it for YEARS if they stay on B12.

I'm beginning to wonder if B12 and potassium are agonists. No matter how long I take B12 & folate, I will have hypokalemia. For some reason, with my body it's severe. I feel like it's ruining my life! When I take it, I don't have the energy to exercise, I get bloated, and I'm depressed and cranky. I'm wondering if I can take it once a week or even once a month to keep myself going. Honestly, I feel pretty good when I don't take anything. I would prefer to have the neurological damage that's been done be healed, but if I had to live with the status quo and just have no more damage, I would prefer it to the hypokalemia. (Just to reiterate: I don't have CFS. Neuro problems are my primary symptom, though what made me consider B12 deficiency was a new, profound fatigue, hair loss, shortness of breath, etc. Everything is better except I still have some hair loss which I understand can take a long time to address). Since there are people who manage OK with once-a-month B12 shots, I wonder why I couldn't take oral B12 once a month? I would take 5000 B12 since my reaction doesn't seem to be dose dependent.!

Hi, i'm experiencing exactly the same now
I have a b12 deficiency and when I take the supplements I get severe hypokalemia, it ruins everything
Have you find some answers yet to your potassium problem?

 

[Leopardtail]

mominmo
So you were taking 200 mcg methylfolate and 250 mcg methylcobalamin from 1/4 tablet. Were you taking those sublingually? And were you taking any B12 in addition to that? And were you taking any niacin? Niacin slows down methylation which can be useful for people who have strong reactions to the supplements.

Some people need to start out with less than 200 mcg of methylfolate. What I'd recommend first is just take B12 without methylfolate and make sure you can tolerate that. Then what you can do is crush up 1/4 tablet of methylfolate and wet a toothpick to pick up a portion of that powder. Another option is mixing the powder with water and drinking a portion of the water.

@Lotus97
Lotus,

does Niacin slow down Methylation (as in causing the supplement to work both longer and more mildly, or does it consume Methyl groups in efforts to process it?

B.