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Completely eliminated my severe anxiety symptoms with three supplements!

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by Hip, Jul 7, 2012.

  1. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Should be fine.
     
    PeeWee likes this.
  2. PeeWee

    PeeWee

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    Thought you might be interested @Hip: Two relatives of mine who don't have cfs both have Generalised Anxiety Disorder diagnoses & medication (which doesn't seem very effective for either of them). I bought NAG,Turmeric & flaxseed oil for one of them to try - but they don't appear to have had much effect. However, the other person tried 3 NAG capsules over 36 hours and is quite convinced they had a very positive anxiety-decreasing effect. The experiment is to be continued for the coming week! Interesting to have 1/2 responders - similar proportion to pwcfs reporting benefit?
     
  3. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Very interesting, @PeeWee, thanks very much for posting that.

    As you say, the results from your two relatives seem to display the approximate 50% success rate that I have observed with NAG for treating GAD patients on this forum. But it is interesting to see NAG work for a non-ME/CFS patient with GAD, because I don't have very much info about the success rate of NAG for non-ME/CFS patients (it did occur to me that NAG might only work for ME/CFS patients with GAD). Please do keep me informed on the further testing.

    Does the relative that NAG seems to work for have any comorbid conditions such as IBS or other gut problems, or chronic sinusitis?
     
  4. PeeWee

    PeeWee

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    Gut problems definitely. I'll check on the chronic sinusitis & report back!
     
  5. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Thanks. In the second half of this post, there is speculation on possible mechanisms of action for NAG's anti-anxiety effect. One of the mechanisms relates to NAG's possible anti-inflammatory effect on the mucous membranes (mucous membranes are found in the gut and nasal / sinus cavities); I have theorized elsewhere that inflammation on the mucous membranes may cause anxiety symptoms. So if this were true, then you might expect NAG will tend to work for GAD patients with gut or nasal/sinus inflammation.
     
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  6. asymmetry

    asymmetry

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    Still going on the NAG and Flax, had a few wobble days where my agitation is higher, but not as high as it has been over the past few months. I suspect that NAG is helping heal my gut quicker, so I get over these incidents much more quickly (a day instead of days).

    I have been having some very good results with Magnesium Malate too, taken adhoc.

    I'm now considering adding Turmeric, but reading around it, it would appear to alter serotonin, norepinephrine dopamine levels. As I'm already on a pharmaceutical for the first of these two, is it wise to try the turmeric? any thoughts?

    Did anyone have a noticeable mental change when adding turmeric? (such as mood)
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2017
  7. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    One very obvious explanation would be Cortisol. Where the adrenals are in good shape the body produces Cortisol to manage inflammation, that in turn causes anxiety. I have ongoing sinusitus due to fungal infection that causes crazy levels of Cortisol. When I shift the infection (and the inflammation is causes) the Cortisol goes down.

    I picked something up during a recent review of my blood work. That being high-normal levels of Ethanolamine. Not something I had come across. I have learnt however that it and a number of
    other similar metabolites in my blood are natural anti-oxidant / anti-inflammatory substances.

    Ethanolmaine works on CB-1 (Cannabinoid) receptors that have the effect of raising Cortisol levels. It would be very interesting to know if those who respond to NAG show the same pattern. I have recently dug out some NAG and will be trying it soon.

    I am very seldom even remotely anxious, however I have high levels of a number of sedating chemicals in my blood (e.g. Adenosine).
     
  8. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    Have you any idea of the science behing the mechanisms of their actions Hip?

    Interesting, I have long term high Cortisol and am producing large amounts of both Taurine and Citrulline. Initally I had anxiety, no longer do (meditation and self hypnosis), perhaps these are my body's adjustment to cope with the Cortisol.

    Have you any clues about the mechanism behind Citrulline Malate?

    Trying inulin at the moment, but might be an idea to increase the dose to these levels.

    I also found that Zinc Carnosine was the best supplement by far for restoring mucous membranes (mine have been thin and dry for some time) - I have resisted this due to cost.

    Does inulin remain effective following heat (e.g. if baked into Keto bread?)

    This one is interesting. I found it massively increased Cortisol.. Perhaps this one may be effective where LOW cortisol is causing anxiety due to inability to deal with stress, but worsen matters where the anxiety if caused by over stimualtion?

    I had to wonder whether these two act in concert to produce Acetyl-Choline. Particlularly given that is affects social anxiety and due to its relevant to the parasympahetic nervous system in our community. I am tring them in concert now to get Cortisol down and improve bowel function via the PS control of the enteric nervous system.

    I tried PS at night and found it effective for Cortisol, it's on my to do list to reorder now.

    This is interesting on two accounts. Firstly there has been research from Japan showing both low and high Glutamate in ME pateints (low in my case), secondly it ties in with the mixed responses to Gupta's Amygdala therapy.

    From the forums we know low Cortisol is dominant but a signifcant number also have high Cortisol. Your hypothesis could givew us two explantions for subgroups one with raised Cortisol, with raised Glutamate.

    I would love to know to what extent each person currently feeling wired has one, both or neither raised.

    In response to your 'wired' vs 'anxous' theory. I am inclined to rework slightly. Wired beign a state of over-stimulous, Anxious being severe over-stimulous. So I see it as being a stimulation scale starting at doped (under stimualted) through healthy to wired and then anxious.

    There again though Glutamate would likely mimic high Catechol levels thereby producing slightly different symptoms to high Cortisol.
     
  9. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I do, but the starting point in understanding generalized anxiety disorder (GAD) is not very good, because there seems to be very little research into this illness, and I get the impression people don't realize how bad moderate to severe GAD can be (such "nervous breakdowns" caused by anxiety can destroy careers and relationships). So I think that GAD research is overlooked, and consequently, we know very little about the mechanisms of GAD.

    What we do know is that when you locally infuse glutamate antagonists into the amygdala, this has been shown to decrease fear and anxiety in animals. So this suggests that anxiety might be caused by high levels of glutamate in the amygdala (though note that the amygdala is not the only brain area linked to anxiety).

    Now it just so happens that chronic brain inflammation can produce lots of glutamate, so my hypothesis is that GAD may be caused by brain inflammation in the amygdala, producing lots of glutamate which over-stimulates the NMDA receptors in this area of the brain. This then may explain why supplements which reduce brain inflammation I observed to have anti-anxiety effects.

    I also found high dose transdermal magnesium (an good NMDA antagonist) had anti-anxiety effects, reinforcing the theory that NMDA receptor overstimulation is the cause of my GAD.

    N-acetyl-glucosamine is the star anti-anxiety supplement in my anti-anxiety list, and I speculate on its possible anti-inflammatory mechanisms of action at the bottom of this post.



    Zinc carnosine is known to help leaky gut, so perhaps you might have such intestinal barrier dysfunction? More info in this post.



    I am not sure, but citrulline (as well as arginine), in doses of around 5 grams, detoxifies ammonia, and ammonia, like glutamate, is a potent activator of NMDA receptors. I find citrulline and arginine have noticeable anti-anxiety effects, which could mean that my anxiety in part may be due to high ammonia. In fact, high ammonia was my first theory on what caused my severe generalized anxiety disorder (see this thread).

    I think high ammonia might explain the anxiety found in people with Helicobacter pylori stomach ulcers, as this bacterium produces lots of ammonia.

    This ammonia theory may still hold (and may be responsible for a percentage of my anxiety); but I now think most of my anxiety is likely due to brain inflammation and glutamate.



    One idea I had: GAD may be due to high glutamate specifically in the amygdala, whereas the "wired" state may be due to high glutamate in other areas of the brain. Obviously the particular location of any high glutamate in the brain will determine what type of mental symptoms appear.



    For high cortisol, ketoconazole is a potent inhibitor, but this drug is hard to find, as it has been largely taken off the market due to it occasionally causing serious and sometimes fatal liver problems. Ref: 1 Phosphatidylserine and Relora® (Magnolia officinalis and Phellodendron amurense) also lower cortisol. Ref: 1 Holy basil is touted to regulate cortisol.
     
  10. PeeWee

    PeeWee

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    Update on my family member who's trying some @Hip suggestions.
    He's a middle aged man who had stomach ulcers for years & still has significant stomach issues. He has GAD but not cfs. He's tried NAG over the last couple of weeks.

    He says NAG definitely works for him. It 'makes going out easier'. He intends to take it, in addition to prescribed meds for GAD, when he needs to go out or deal with people rather than every day.

    On the basis of Hip's last post, he's now going to try arginine pyroglutamate as well.
    Question: We can see arginine pyroglutamate is not the same as L-Arginine. Where's a good source of arginine pyroglutamate?
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2017
  11. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    It's not exactly the same, but arginine pyroglutamate is a source of arginine, and one that crosses the blood-brain barrier more easily that other forms of arginine. But I noticed anti-anxiety effects from several forms of arginine, including arginine pyroglutamate, arginine alpha-ketoglutarate and di-arginine malate.

    If ammonia from Helicobacter pylori in the stomach (a bacterium that causes most gastric ulcers) were the root of your family member's anxiety symptoms (or plays a role in creating those anxiety symptoms), then another good way to detoxify ammonia is yucca root 2 grams daily. Note that yucca root and yuca (cassava, manioc) are not the same.

    Or perhaps look into eradicating the gastric Helicobacter pylori infection, if this is indeed the cause of the ulcers and the anxiety. Some info on testing for Helicobacter pylori here.
     
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  12. PeeWee

    PeeWee

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    Thank you @Hip. He's going to try yucca root. It has 1-3 week delivery - will report back!
     
  13. parabola

    parabola

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  14. Thinktank

    Thinktank Senior Member

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    I too have been diagnosed with Crohn's disease. If you're looking for a curcumin product then look at Thorne's meriva (soy free) liposomal formula. It has quite an anti-inflammatory effect on my intestines.

    What else hve you tried in terms of natural treatment for Crohn's?
     
  15. Marc_NL

    Marc_NL Senior Member

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    According to what kind of test?
    Did KDM diagnose you with Crohn's disease?
     
  16. asymmetry

    asymmetry

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    turmeric spray hey, might end up smelling like a rogan josh ;) interesting idea.

    I have been having some interesting results with Oolong GABA tea. I bought it loose and decided to try it, the first time was remarkable and reminded me of taking a small amount of benzo. Second day effect not quite as strong. Suspect one needs to have it and lay off it for a while (pulse it), so those GABA receptors dont down regulate.

    I know there's alot of internet discussion about GABA not crossing the BBB but I definitely felt it. I did read somewhere that because it's in the tea it can transport OK, somehow. Need to find the ref.

    Here's the tea I'm using: https://www.whittard.co.uk/gifts/formosa-gaba-oolong-oolong-loose-leaf-tea.htm
     
    parabola likes this.
  17. parabola

    parabola

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    Thanks I will look into it, what effects did you notice from it, in terms of symptom improvement?

    The thing that works best for me is an elemental diet (Nurtricia E028) and my colonoscopy/biopsies back that up. I'm supposed to be weaned off of it by now but currently 'stuck' on about 750kcal worth of formula. This has happened before too. Basically, in addition to the foods I can't tolerate, my response to ANY solid foods seems to be volume-dependent.. i.e. even if I try and make up that 750cal with foods that I am already 'safely' eating, my condition will still deteriorate.

    Have you ever tried any of the immunosuppressant therapies? I haven't, but do wonder whether they would help (or harm!) my ME!
     
  18. Thinktank

    Thinktank Senior Member

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    With curcumin from thorne i notice less pain in the intestines and way better formed stools. Unfortunately i can't take it for long periods because it makes me feel really cranky.

    I'm trying a homemade elemental formula at the moment and so far so good. I also have some E028 and vivonex on the way to try out. I hope to achieve remission with it!
    I don't really have any safe foods anymore because everything causes some kind of reaction. Vegetables are the biggest offenders and it's not the fibre!

    I've not tried any immunosuppresive or biological treatment yet, you? I hope to achieve remission with the elemental diet and 5-ASA. Then i will follow up with one or multiple faecal transplants at the taymount clinic because i believe a healthy microbiome is the key to homeostasis in the gut. It is very important though to achieve remission first, otherwise the immune system will just go haywire when all those bacteria are introduced.

    If that doesn't work i'll probably try a biologic, probably humira or remicade.
     
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  19. parabola

    parabola

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    @asymmetry it is an oral spray not a body spray- can you image? :rofl: "You know when you've been Tangoed"

    Interesting, what are you using to make up your home made elemental? I have experimented with protein powders (to try and make a less carb-heavy version of elemental formula to help me wean off this one) but I can't find anything that agrees with me, I think it is the fact that the proteins are fully hydrolysed to amino acids in the E028 that helps me, and it's impossible to find a complete amino acid powder that doesn't cost the earth/is definitely gluten free. I can't use glucose either as it causes terrible hypos, in a way that sucrose doesn't ?!

    I have looked into the Taymount before and their prices are out of reach for me, sadly. Maybe one day. I haven't tried any of the immunological drugs either, just salokfalk granules (bad reaction!) and a course of prednisolone (felt amazing).

    What do you think the mechanism is behind the curcumin crankiness?
     
  20. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    This is thread about treating anxiety disorder, please keep to the topic.
     

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