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Community symposium on molecular basis of ME/CFS at Stanford Discussion Thread

FMMM1

Senior Member
Messages
513
Did someone mention (or the OMF conference) that Prof Jonas Berqueist (sp) was planning to run a small study using kynurenine?

Interestingly oral kynurenine sulphate has been tested in humans before. If the majority of pathology is dependent on the absence of kynurenine and some of its beneficial (kynurenic acid) and not so beneficial metabolites (quinolinic acid), then maybe kynurenine should be considered - far less dangerous than interferon gamma administration (when performed the supervision of a MD) but only when dose is given in very small amounts, carefully incremented.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22392362

Potentially as the majority of evidence suggests TH2 immune polarisation the amount of neurotoxic quinolinic acid should be less relative to the amount of the neuroprotectant kynurenic acid.

Going back to the CNS symptoms of ME; it probably fits well - a potential reduction in the production of kynurenic acid, which maybe needed as an endogenous neuroprotectant to regulate neuronal glutamate signalling. Moreover many of my CNS symptoms and basal locomotor output (not PEM) responds to modifiers of glutamate release/signalling - i.e. Memantine, gabapentin, flupirtine.

Originally I somewhat mistakenly focused too much on the 'sickness behavior' model of this pathway, suspecting neuro-inflammation and hence IDO activation that cannot be identified using serum cytokine sampling. However this model is often based on the administration of exogenous cytokine or LPS to the periphery.

Of course if TH2 dominates perhaps the odds of quinolinic acid being produced at amounts required for neurotoxicity are less. Therefore, if we restore endogenous nmda-r antagonism, curtailing aberrant glutamatergic signalling, this would most likely at a minimum improve some of the CNS symptoms.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4587003


Regarding kynurenine and Jonas Bergquist; thanks for highlighting this - must check it out.
Check out Ron Davis's introduction to Jonas Bergquist's presentation [time - 1 hour 35 minutes from the start - roughly]. Ron refers to wanting to study X (doesn't refer to kynurenine) and Jonas Bergquist said we just made some of that. So the upshot is Jonas's team are going to do whatever it was. Ron was using this as an example of how co-operative working moves things on more quickly.


Consider writing to your elected representative i.e. to request funding for ME/CFS research including the development of a diagnostic test.
I've written to the European Union Committee on the Environment, Public Health and Food Safety (ENVI) requesting that they lobby for funding for research into ME/CFS including the development of a diagnostic test [https://forums.phoenixrising.me/ind...ch-theyre-working-for-you.61516/#post-1003111].
Currently the ENVI Committee is lobbying for increased funding for research into Lyme disease and the development of a diagnostic test.
In 2016 the European Commission [European Union civil service] said [regarding Lyme disease] that "Both basic research and the development of new diagnostics, treatments and vaccines for Lyme borreliosis are funded by EU research and innovation framework programmes. The total EU contribution to such projects since 2007 amounts to EUR 33.9 million [US dollars]" [http://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-8-2016-008631-ASW_EN.html].

ME/CFS received no funding from the European Union [http://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-8-2017-006901-ASW_EN.html].
 
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FMMM1

Senior Member
Messages
513
This was stated about the severely ill, not the rest of us. Many PWME have tested high for various metals, and have worked on chelating them.

Additionally, my experience after chelating in and off for over 7 years and doing different types of tests is that metals won't show up as they are sequestered in the body, particularly in the mitochondria. It takes admistering the correct chelator for them to show up in the blood. (I had no arsenic show up for years, until I got an IV of an alpha lipouc acid polymer, which caused arsenic to show up at CDC-recognizes toclxic levels in my blood.)

Pacific salmon are a low mercury fish. These are higher mercury fish:
  • Swordfish
  • Shark
  • King mackerel
  • Gulf tilefish
  • Marlin
  • Orange roughy
  • Grouper
  • Chilean sea bass
  • Bluefish
  • Halibut
  • Sablefish (black cod)
  • Spanish mackerel (Gulf)
  • Fresh tuna (except skipjack)

Doubtful. The best way to find out would be a provoked urine heavy metal test, using 2 chelators that cover a wide range of heavy metals.

Again, this was found with the severely ill, NOT the rest of us. Many of us have viruses that are chronic or reactivated that will respond to treatment. I am thankful my ME/CFS specialist found the EBV and 4 other viruses and treated them, vastly improving my function.


My current testing indicates TH1. I suspect we would be all over the map, depending on which subset we are in.

I was wondering if there was a better way to respond to your earlier post.

If you check out Ron Davis's presentation at the Invest In ME Conference (June 2018) then you will hear him explain his approach to science. First he collects data then (based on the data) he makes a hypothesis. He points out that NIH are approaching science the wrong way i.e. they make a hypothesis (without collecting data) and then they collect the data i.e. to test the hypothesis. Ron's presentation is available from the OMF site [https://www.omf.ngo/2018/09/17/ron-davis-iimec13/].

In this case the hypothesis are that there are 1) high levels of toxic metals which are causing ME/CFS; 2) virus's which are causing ME/CFS.

If you look at the first i.e. heavy metals. They've looked at a group of people with ME/CFS and they actually have low levels compared to the normal range (healthy controls). Ron says that they have a theory as to why the levels are low in ME/CFS. I assume that this means that we can forget about heavy metals for the time being i.e. as a potential cause of ME/CFS.
As an asside; I worked in a clinical laboratory testing for (among other things) metal toxicity e.g. lead ingested by swans/cattle ---. If you test whole blood (rather than plasma) then I assume you'd detect metals inside the cells as well as those in the plasma. If you test urine then I assume you'd have a result for total metals. Haven't checked Ron's methods!

If you look at the second i.e. virus's. Ron refers to a colleague who describes the bloodstream as a sewer i.e. route the body used to dispose of waste materials. Everything gets degraded and disposed of via the bloodstream. He also highlights how current technology would identify aids (i.e. an unknown virus) in a few hours. Therefore if there were virus's, i.e. actively maintaining ME/CFS, then these virus's would be degraded and could be detected in the blood stream. There are two major groups of virus's i.e. DNA and RNA. I think one group of virus are easier to scan for (RNA I assume). So Davis's group may have done a study looking at one group of virus's (RNA) and they may have plans to look for the other major group [DNA virus's - EBV is, I assume, an example of a DNA virus]. Therefore, currently regarding virus's, available data suggests that these are lower in ME/CFS i.e. are not actively maintaining ME/CFS.

Intracellular tryptophan, which is elevated in ME/CFS, appears to be a potential cause of ME/CFS (Phair). I assume that we need a diagnostic test for intracellular tryptophan and methods to lower the levels of intracellular tryptophan. That way we would see whether the results for a small group (you highlight this fact and I agree with you) apply to others. I have concerns regarding this i.e. ME/CFS may be a common outcome with more than one cause/cure [check out Ron Tompkins's presentation].


Consider writing to your elected representative i.e. to request funding for ME/CFS research including the development of a diagnostic test.
I've written to the European Union Committee on the Environment, Public Health and Food Safety (ENVI) requesting that they lobby for funding for research into ME/CFS including the development of a diagnostic test [https://forums.phoenixrising.me/ind...ch-theyre-working-for-you.61516/#post-1003111].
Currently the ENVI Committee is lobbying for increased funding for research into Lyme disease and the development of a diagnostic test.
In 2016 the European Commission [European Union civil service] said [regarding Lyme disease] that "Both basic research and the development of new diagnostics, treatments and vaccines for Lyme borreliosis are funded by EU research and innovation framework programmes. The total EU contribution to such projects since 2007 amounts to EUR 33.9 million [US dollars]" [http://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-8-2016-008631-ASW_EN.html].

ME/CFS received no funding from the European Union [http://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-8-2017-006901-ASW_EN.html].
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
Davis was reporting on the severely ill, NOT the rest of us.

Many of us have benefited greatly by treating viruses and chelating heavy metals.

These images of arsenic in mitochondria was presented at the 2016 United Mitochondrial Disease Conference by a researcher studying toxicity and mitochondria. (It's the black stuff)
arsenic in mitochondria.png
 

JES

Senior Member
Messages
1,323
Davis was reporting on the severely ill, NOT the rest of us.

He has been testing specifically the severely ill, but Davis' idea as far as I understood it wasn't to test the severely ill because he thinks that group has a distinct disease. The idea behind testing on the severely ill was that whatever "signal" of the illness that could be discovered, it would be present much stronger in the severely ill than in the mild/moderate group and hence would be easier to discover. If Davis' research would really only concern the severely ill, it would be of no use to the majority of us who aren't in a state like Whitney Dafoe, but I don't think that's the case.

Another reason why they didn't find viruses could be that I believe their team is specifically looking for actual viruses in the blood with PCR like methods. Most lab tests rely on antibodies and Davis and Naviaux have both cautioned against using antibody titers as indicators for active viruses. I think the following quote from Naviaux sums up their thinking on this:
We have learned in our autism studies with Dr. Judy Van de Water that supertiters of antibodies do not mean new or reactivated viral replication. Supertiters of IgG antibodies mean that the balancing T-cell and NK cell mediated immune activity is decreased. This is a functional kind of immune deficiency that causes an unbalanced increase in antibodies.
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
My doctor, a top ME/CFS specialist, used PCR tests to find EBV and CMV and treated me with Valcyte, which helped me tremendously, clearing my brain fog and decreasing my fatigue. Though he absolutely individualizes treatment for his vatious patients, he does, as many doctors do, have a lab order form, customized for him to save time, that he checks off tests as he works with patients, with the viruses being listed. He likely would not do this if he did not find that many of his patients indeed have many of these infections.

The Montoya study found Valcyte helped patients as well. It may be immunomodulator for some, but as in my case, it may be successfully going after the infections.

Unfortunately, I had 2 autoimmune problems develop prior to the EBV being found, which my doctor believes were likely triggered by the EBV. They are producing the bulk of my current symptoms, involving treatment with 9 different prescription drugs, most of which I need compounded, which can be expensive snd inconvenient.

Had the viruses been identified sooner, I likely wouldn't have become as ill in the first place, nor would I be plagued by these autoimmune problems that require so much treatment.

Yes, I definitely believe not all patients have active viruses. Many don't.

But, I also believe that people loudly shouting that patients don't have them could have the unfortunate effect of having many patients needlessly suffer with the viruses and autoimmune conditions left untested and untreated.:bang-head:

As many scientists have said, there are a number of different subsets here. Younger found both an infectious and an autoimmune subset last year, and when I asked him directly, he told me that there is indeed a third subset like me, with both infections and autoimmunity.

Having thorough and accurate testing can only help us and steer us toward treatments that can help. As a patient, that's what I want, don't you?:nerd:
 

Tally

Senior Member
Messages
367
He has been testing specifically the severely ill, but Davis' idea as far as I understood it wasn't to test the severely ill because he thinks that group has a distinct disease. The idea behind testing on the severely ill was that whatever "signal" of the illness that could be discovered, it would be present much stronger in the severely ill than in the mild/moderate group and hence would be easier to discover. If Davis' research would really only concern the severely ill, it would be of no use to the majority of us who aren't in a state like Whitney Dafoe, but I don't think that's the case.

I agree 100%.

What's this it's severely ill, not "us"?? Severely ill are us. We are all in this together.

Btw, @Learner1 What made you think that these patients are severely ill? The heavy metal test done by Laurel Crosby, results which were shown on IiME conference, was not done on those 20 Severely Ill patients from OMF's study.

Look at the graph.

It mentions patients from Finland and Croatia. 20 Severely ill were all in the US.

De5SX6t.png
 

FMMM1

Senior Member
Messages
513
My doctor, a top ME/CFS specialist, used PCR tests to find EBV and CMV and treated me with Valcyte, which helped me tremendously, clearing my brain fog and decreasing my fatigue. Though he absolutely individualizes treatment for his vatious patients, he does, as many doctors do, have a lab order form, customized for him to save time, that he checks off tests as he works with patients, with the viruses being listed. He likely would not do this if he did not find that many of his patients indeed have many of these infections.

The Montoya study found Valcyte helped patients as well. It may be immunomodulator for some, but as in my case, it may be successfully going after the infections.

Unfortunately, I had 2 autoimmune problems develop prior to the EBV being found, which my doctor believes were likely triggered by the EBV. They are producing the bulk of my current symptoms, involving treatment with 9 different prescription drugs, most of which I need compounded, which can be expensive snd inconvenient.

Had the viruses been identified sooner, I likely wouldn't have become as ill in the first place, nor would I be plagued by these autoimmune problems that require so much treatment.

Yes, I definitely believe not all patients have active viruses. Many don't.

But, I also believe that people loudly shouting that patients don't have them could have the unfortunate effect of having many patients needlessly suffer with the viruses and autoimmune conditions left untested and untreated.:bang-head:

As many scientists have said, there are a number of different subsets here. Younger found both an infectious and an autoimmune subset last year, and when I asked him directly, he told me that there is indeed a third subset like me, with both infections and autoimmunity.

Having thorough and accurate testing can only help us and steer us toward treatments that can help. As a patient, that's what I want, don't you?:nerd:


I live in the UK which has a national health service (NHS) which is funded through taxation (not insurance premiums). Compared to the UK NHS, the standard of the top tier of US healthcare is way better.

I have a family member who is ill with severe fatigue etc. (unable to live a normal life) and who has been treated with medication which has significant health risks (bone thinning etc). That's why I am on this site. I have concerns that even if the bulk of people with ME/CFS have high intracellular tryptophan resulting in "ME/CFS", and this could be treated (e.g. by refeeding syndrome approach), then there may still be people with ME/CFS whose disease originates from a different source/requires different treatment. Dr. Alain Moreau's presentation at the OMF Symposium supports your view of sub-types "the data is able to be split into 4 subtypes based on the microRNA, which relates to variations in symptom expression" [https://www.omf.ngo/2018/10/22/second-annual-symposium-summary/].

I'd like to see an objective diagnostic test which identifies those e.g. with a cellular energy production problem [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5161229/]. E.g.
However, as Dr. Ron Tompkins said at the symposium, ME/CFS may be a common outcome from a number of causes.

I don't think that we are on different sides here. How do we get money to test whether anti-viral's etc work?


Consider writing to your elected representative i.e. to request funding for ME/CFS research including the development of a diagnostic test.
I've written to the European Union Committee on the Environment, Public Health and Food Safety (ENVI) requesting that they lobby for funding for research into ME/CFS including the development of a diagnostic test [https://forums.phoenixrising.me/ind...ch-theyre-working-for-you.61516/#post-1003111].
Currently the ENVI Committee is lobbying for increased funding for research into Lyme disease and the development of a diagnostic test.
In 2016 the European Commission [European Union civil service] said [regarding Lyme disease] that "Both basic research and the development of new diagnostics, treatments and vaccines for Lyme borreliosis are funded by EU research and innovation framework programmes. The total EU contribution to such projects since 2007 amounts to EUR 33.9 million [US dollars]" [http://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-8-2016-008631-ASW_EN.html].

ME/CFS received no funding from the European Union [http://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-8-2017-006901-ASW_EN.html].
 

JES

Senior Member
Messages
1,323
My doctor, a top ME/CFS specialist, used PCR tests to find EBV and CMV and treated me with Valcyte, which helped me tremendously, clearing my brain fog and decreasing my fatigue. Though he absolutely individualizes treatment for his vatious patients, he does, as many doctors do, have a lab order form, customized for him to save time, that he checks off tests as he works with patients, with the viruses being listed. He likely would not do this if he did not find that many of his patients indeed have many of these infections.

Fair enough, you had viruses detected with PCR and it makes perfect sense to treat them then. My worry was that some doctors treat only based on antibody titers (I mentioned in another thread that I had high titers for mycoplasma pneumoniae to which I was given a couple of long courses of antibiotics, both of which did nothing and I suspect I never had activated mycoplasma to begin with).
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
I agree 100%.

What's this it's severely ill, not "us"?? Severely ill are us. We are all in this together.
  • Researchers have repeatedly said there are subsets
  • We are all unique individuals genetically and with our environmental exposures - yes, we will share characteristics, but we are not identical widgets and there will be differences
  • Montoya's study found differences in cytokine patterns between mild, moderate, and severely ill
  • Etc.
Btw, @Learner1 What made you think that these patients are severely ill? The heavy metal test done by Laurel Crosby, results which were shown on IiME conference, was not done on those 20 Severely Ill patients from OMF's study.
Davis has said so on at least 2 occasions. Crosby works with Davis. And, hair testing is not accurate, though it can show heavy metals.

https://www.marinnaturalmedicine.com/journal/heavy-metal-testing

At first glance, hair sampling seems like a great option for metal testing: metals
stay in hair for a long period of time, and long hair may give a historical record of exposure. In addition, collecting it is not invasive and causes minimal discomfort to the patient.

While many experts believe hair analysis can indicate an exposure to a particular metal, particularly methyl mercury [17], it cannot determine dosage. Also, scalp hair is readily contaminated by deposits from external
environmental exposures. Positive tests can be the result of external contamination like dust, smoke, or hair care products, since metals can bind to the hair follicle both from external and internal exposures.In addition, there is little consensus on the possibility of contamination during the collection procedure (from metal tools) and the washing and processing during analysis in the laboratory [26].

Further complicating the interpretation of hair analysis, is the fact that background contamination levels have not been established for most metals [27] and results across different commercial laboratories have
been found to be very inconsistent [26].

Attempts have been made to establish hair reference limits for some metals, including mercury and arsenic, however, the accuracy of these reference limits is controversial [28]. An exception to this is maternal hair methyl mercury levels and risk for adverse
fetal outcomes, which have been shown to correlate in research studies [29] and for which there are also better correlations with hair and blood [30].

Hair analysis has been useful in research situations in which there is a careful standardized collection, and group analysis [30]. Hair analysis can be useful in selected clinical and forensic circumstances, to determine if there has been a past exposure to a metal that is quickly excreted such as arsenic.

However, analyzing hair, particularly for multiple elements, has been proven to be highly inaccurate, in which duplicate samples have been sent to the same laboratory and to multiple other laboratories with markedly different results [26].

My experience with chelating taught me a lot..i originally chelated mercury with DMSA and DMPS, with methylation support and replenishing trace minerals, over a 3 year period.

A couple of years later, I got stage 3 cancer, and was given platinum chemotherapy. Concerned about the long term effects of platinum, I chelsted platinum for 9 months, with EDTA and again the methylation and mineral support. My doctor used a Doctors Data provoked urine heavy metals test at 4 times during the process.

When I began, the platinum was at over 100, then went to 56, 23, and 8 by the end of the 9 months. There is no test that will tell how much of a metal we have in us, any test will only test what's coming out. So, though I knew I still had some platinum, I knew it was far less than I'd had and I decided to stop.

And testing of all the metals over time had consistently shown no arsenic.

When i complained to my doctor that i was still fatigued after chemotherapy, he tried an IV of an alpha lipoic acid polymer that is supposed to perk mitochondria up. It didn't, I fainted on the floor of his office before I could leave. Suspicious, he tested my blood with a conventional LabCorp test and I had acute arsenic toxicity!

The same week, I coincidentally went to the UMDF Conference and sat through the toxicity talk, where the researcher showed how toxins can be sequestered in mitochondria, and showed the slide I posted earlier where the arsenic got sequestered in mitochondria.

So, after 5 years of chelating with agents that shluld have gotten arsenic out of me, with my arsenic level showing zero in test after test, it was clear that the arsenic had been in me all along, just hidden in my mitochondria. It certainly wouldn't shoe up on a hair metal toxicity test.

Arsenic is a dangerous carcinogen and it can stop ATP production in mitochondria, do it is worth getting ridd of. I continued with the alpha lipoic acid polymer, both oral and IV for 2 years. At first, it made me fatigued and gave me weird symptoms, but methylation support and curcumin were helpful in lessening the symptoms, but eventually it gave me energy.

Repeat testing has shown my arsenic level near zero, though I have had cadmium and tin show up. From whst I've learned and seen, the body can only get rid of metals one at a time, there's a sequence in which they come out, so a test at any given point in time will show what the body is getting rid of at that point.

So, though I am pleased that they did try to look for heavy metals, I am not convinced that they got an accurate picture of the heavy metals in those patients, and suspect that there are indeed heavy metals in many, if not most, patients.
 

ljimbo423

Senior Member
Messages
4,705
Location
United States, New Hampshire
Another reason why they didn't find viruses could be that I believe their team is specifically looking for actual viruses in the blood with PCR like methods.

Most lab tests rely on antibodies and Davis and Naviaux have both cautioned against using antibody titers as indicators for active viruses.

I agree 100% with this view. I have seen many posts here of people that have tested with very high antibodies to multiple viruses like EBV or bacteria like CMV. When they get a PCR test done, it shows no viral/bacterial reactivation, as in this post-

In my case I perpetually test strongly positive for EBV antibodies but no EBV DNA is detectable in the blood. Previous antiviral drugs had no discernable effect
LINK-post #7

High antibody titers in ME/CFS, I think are very often misleading, because of the ongoing immune dysfunction.

I think that antivirals help some people with ME/CFS because of the immune modulating affects Jose Montoya has mentioned in one of his studies.

However, that's a very different treatment response than being told one has a viral reactivation causing symptoms and the antiviral is lowing the viral load, making the person feel better.
 

Tally

Senior Member
Messages
367
Researchers have repeatedly said there are subsets

Some researchers believe there are subsets. Others believe that there are no subsets, everyone has the same root cause and differences we are seeing in symptom expression is due to genetic differences.

The jury is still out and we shouldn't claim anything until more is known.

  • We are all unique individuals genetically and with our environmental exposures - yes, we will share characteristics, but we are not identical widgets and there will be differences

By your logic each one of us has different illness.

Yes, of course there are differences, but the main question is, are those differences important for the underlying pathophysiology and ultimately for the treatment and cure.


99% of research on ME/CFS is being done on moderately ill because they can get to research centers and severely iĺl never rejected that research as not pertaining to them. One research is done on severely ill and suddenly it's "us vs. them" (I won't even start on how blurry the lines are between groups mildly, moderately and severely affected, and how all severe patients didn't start as severe, and how some mild patients will become severe and some severe will become mild......)

And once again, heavy metal research was not done as a part of that OMF's Severely ill patient study, so they most likely weren't even severely ill.
 

Martin aka paused||M.E.

Senior Member
Messages
2,291
I agree 100% with this view. I have seen many posts here of people that have tested with very high antibodies to multiple viruses like EBV or bacteria like CMV. When they get a PCR test done, it shows no viral/bacterial reactivation, as in this post-


LINK-post #7

High antibody titers in ME/CFS, I think are very often misleading, because of the ongoing immune dysfunction.

I think that antivirals help some people with ME/CFS because of the immune modulating affects Jose Montoya has mentioned in one of his studies.

However, that's a very different treatment response than being told one has a viral reactivation causing symptoms and the antiviral is lowing the viral load, making the person feel better.

In addition to this two quotes from Mr. @Jonathan Edwards on the other forum:

“By and large viral testing is only any use if paired samples taken two or more weeks apart immediately following an acute illness show a significant rise. So basically all viral testing for a chronic illness like ME is a waste of time.“

“Viral antibody levels rise after an acute infection and then may stay high life long. High levels just indicate a past infection. Some tests like IgM titres may point towards recent infection but not ver reliably. It seems that these tests have been over interpreted by 'ME physicians' in the past.”

Then there is a quote from Davis which I can’t find now where he states that the PCR of a blood draw is the only way to detect a virus. Even if the virus isn’t in the blood but in the tissues, its waste products so to speak (better: DNA) would be findable in the blood.
 
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wigglethemouse

Senior Member
Messages
776
Then there is a quote from Davis which I can’t find know where he states that the PCR of a blood draw is the only way to detect a virus. Even if the virus isn’t in the blood but in the tissues, its waste products so to speak (better: DNA) would be findable in the blood.
@MartinDH Here is a link to one such quote
Link : https://www.omf.ngo/2018/04/11/the-hunt-for-elusive-pathogens/
Next, the scientists looked for cell-free DNA. Cell-free DNA is genetic material that once belonged to a patient’s own cells, or DNA that used to belong to bacteria, fungi, or viruses. When pathogens die and break down in the patient’s body, fragments of their DNA are released into the bloodstream to be eliminated. Some pathogens are challenging to detect if the infection is mostly confined to a particular organ or tissue; however, by relying only on fragments and not on whole, healthy pathogens, cell-free DNA analysis can identify an infection growing anywhere in the body.
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
In addition to this two quotes from Mr. @Jonathan Edwards on the other forum:

“By and large viral testing is only any use if paired samples taken two or more weeks apart immediately following an acute illness show a significant rise. So basically all viral testing for a chronic illness like ME is a waste of time.“

“Viral antibody levels rise after an acute infection and then may stay high life long. High levels just indicate a past infection. Some tests like IgM titres may point towards recent infection but not ver reliably. It seems that these tests have been over interpreted by 'ME physicians' in the past.”

Then there is a quote from Davis which I can’t find now where he states that the PCR of a blood draw is the only way to detect a virus. Even if the virus isn’t in the blood but in the tissues, its waste products so to speak (better: DNA) would be findable in the blood.
Well, if you believe that, it could be a very dangerous thing. Dr. Edwards seems to be firmly stuck in the 20th century, and has shared a lot of info that is not up to date.

Many of us have chronic viruses, triggered by various stressors (like HSV1, HSV2, and shingles (zoster)) slowly sucking up our resources, which manifest in different ways, with a wide variety of lab results indicating them, which depend on our immune system's ability to fight.

One example of these is chronic EBV -

https://rarediseases.info.nih.gov/diseases/9534/chronic-active-epstein-barr-virus-infection

Another is here, from the NIH website:

A hallmark of CMV infection is that the virus cycles through periods of dormancy and active infection during the life of the individual. Infected persons of any age periodically shed the virus in their body fluids, such as saliva, urine, blood, tears, semen, or breast milk. CMV is most commonly transmitted when infected body fluids come in contact with the mucous membranes of an uninfected person, but the virus can also pass from mother to fetus during pregnancy.

Or this on HHV6 and HHV-7:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17276369/

It is extremely important to do all antibody testing and PCRs available to determine whether you have them or not, particularly if your functional NK cells and Immunoglobulins are low. Some of us with dysfunctional immune systems that can and do react differently to immune threats (from no re tion to only a partial reaction, so that if the typical testing is done, the problem might be missed.

This happened to me where my EBV antibody titers were negative on the EBNA and EA tests for 18 months, before my new ME/CFS doctor was suscpicious about it and ran a PCR and a VCA test which were both very high. Taking Valcyte and 4 other chronic herpes infections began to clear my brain fog and help lessen my fatigue over time
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
@Tally - I'm baffled by what you're driving at...

By your logic each one of us has different illness.
Yes, I believe we do. But we share the same symptoms, and many of the same metabolomic abnormalities and comorbidities from a wide variety of triggers.
Yes, of course there are differences, but the main question is, are those differences important for the underlying pathophysiology and ultimately for the treatment and cure.
Yes they are. Though I fit every criteria in most schemas of ME/CFS diagnostics, except pain, and have many metabolic abnormalities and comorbidities, my triggers were not typical of most patients.
  • I had a long history of allergies, viruses, bronchitis and sinus infections, each made my doctors suspect immunodeficiency, maybe due to genetics
  • Prior to getting ME/CFS I was diagnosed and treated for stage 3 uterine/ovarian cancer, which baffled my oncologist, as I was 10 years too young with BMI too low - I'd been in the best shape of my life. Treatment put me into menopause instantly during surgery, a great shock to my immune system and paclitaxel and carboplatin damaged my mitochondrial membranes.
  • I acted as health advocate for my sister during the last 4 years of her short life, flying to Nevada, California, and Washington to help her get treatment, while she became a manic skeleton and kept walking out of hospitals - she was so crazy and uncooperative that the hospital requested we gain legal guardianship to transfer her across state lines to Stanford, but she died of a massive heart attack in the ICU beforehand. By this point, my adrenals crashed, and I had full blown ME/CFS and the next year was the worst I ever was.
  • In addition to having celiac genes and some quirky methylation SNPs which make my family prone to storing toxins better than most, like the proverbial "canary in the coal mine" - 4/5 of my immediate family has toxin related diseases, other SNPs have been very pertinent as well.
    • PEMT, Phosphatidylethanolamine N-Methyltransferase, is an enzyme responsible for the conversion of phosphatidylethanolamine (PE) into phosphatidylcholine (PC) in the liver. PC is a key component of the flexible cell membranes which surround every cell in our body. If it isn't working properly, it can be difficult to repair damaged membanes, which can be leaky - gut, BBB, and/or mitochondrial membranes.
    • HFE - heriditary hemochromatosis, which can help to damage mitochondrial membranes and damage or shut down all organs
    • SOD2 - lessens the superoxide mutase made to about 17% of normal, so that it can't defang the massive superoxide radicals coming out of my mitochondria. Instead, these superoxides combine with NO to become peroxynitrites, which damage the same membranes.
    • Factor 2 - a genetic clotting factor variant which gives me thick blood, in top of what the researchers have been finding
    • I had an estrogen driven cancer, and so, though I need hormones to optimize my function, they must be thoughtfully prescribed, managed, and adjusted so as not to promote future hormone driven cancers.
  • There are several more pieces to this complex puzzle, but delving in to figure the roots out and customizing a treatment plan around my idiosyncracies is the secret to my success so far.
So, I do not believe that everyone should follow my exact protocol - they likely don't share my exact set of problems. But, though I've shared some of my uniqueness to make a point here, I do recognize that I may benefit from current ME/CFS research, particularly as many of my lab results, symptoms, and health history do match the researchers findings.

But there's a fallacy in everyone's searching for the Holy Grail - there is no magic bullet that can cure us. After my lengthy experiences in the health world trying both heavy duty conventional and natural treatments and common and exotic tests, I have a great respect for the complicated hairball this thing is.

Yes, I believe if traps are found and corrected, suramin or Ampligen or IVIG or Rituximab or 10 pass ozone are used and guts are cleansed of SIBO, Candida, worms, and other nasties and the gut wall and BBB become more stable and less leaky, that we should all have hope for a cure. But it will be a multi-step approach, not a magic pill.

99% of research on ME/CFS is being done on moderately ill because they can get to research centers and severely iĺl never rejected that research as not pertaining to them. One research is done on severely ill and suddenly it's "us vs. them" (I won't even start on how blurry the lines are between groups mildly, moderately and severely affected, and how all severe patients didn't start as severe, and how some mild patients will become severe and some severe will become mild......)
Part of this is a limitation in grants for research funding. And I do see the irony of patients moving back and forth between categories. I do think any stuff that is done gives us new morsels of info to chew on - its just maddeningly slow to get anything usable in a clinical setting...so, for now, we must make our best guesses from what we read and from what our symptoms, labs, and genes say.

I've tried to enroll in several studies so far to be told:
  • I'm too old
  • I'm post menopause
  • I didn't have a well-documented viral illness triggering this
  • I have POTS and MCAS and food allergies. I can't take many drugs, like Celebrex which has corn or milk in all versions and can't be compounded.
  • I'm steadily improving (still pretty sick, but not sick enough to qualify)
  • I'm 7-2500 miles from all US test sites, and the University of Washington has its head firmly in the sand and refuses to acknowledge this disease.
  • Most studies are done on men and research done in women is not published in most medical journals.
  • Doctors gaslight female patients.
I think there could be something to be learned about my case that would help science by volunteering.

On the other hand, I read every study I can with caution. Should I take advice from the conclusion, or were the patients too different from me for some reason that the theory might not work for me. One example is following a thread here on rapamycin and stimulating mTOR to increase it. So as a cancer survivor, I balked as overstimulation of mTOR PROMOTES cancer, something not wise for me.

This is incredibly complex. The analogy I have in my mind is of putting together one of those 1000 piece puzzles on the dining table, one that's missing 350 pieces. So, it sits there, week after week, while family members come by adding 1-3 pieces at a time while the comprehensive picture slowly evolves.

None of us know what that picture in the puzzle looks like today. And though we are making good progress, we are still missing those other 350 pieces. Do we borrow from other medical puzzles we've encountered along the way) Did someone find some under the sofa cushions, lost along the way? Or do new ones need to be colored and cut out of raw materials to fit?

We are far from a comprehensive overview of this disease with definitions of the varying subsets. So, it is counterproductive to treat us as cookie cutter widgets, or as a single subset of the whole. But, as studies are done, they should note which subsets they are choosing to look at, just as Ron Davis' colleague told me that I'll be looked at as a part of the cancer subset as they study the sample gave her.

And, I'm disappointed in the NIH criteria. I'd love to do it but don't qualify. Seems like hardly anyone else does either. Wonder if they might rethink that sometime soon...
 

Martin aka paused||M.E.

Senior Member
Messages
2,291
@Learner1 it's not about whether I believe it or not... I just quoted what two men said, both obviously well trained in the immune system. I personally have no idea, I visited law school, not school of medicine. I had these tests done, but my GP also said that a positive result does not mean I (still) have the infection (btw I don’t have any positive results). That is excactly what Dr. Pfeiffer (immunologist and former CFS specialist from Charité) said and as a consequence only tested via PCR. So I don’t know if it’s THAT out to date... but as said: I’m not a doctor!

I don’t think I have another disease just because I’m severely ill. That would be in contradiction to what Davis found: Same metabolic abnormalities in both, the milder and the more severe cases. I personally think that being more severe just means being at higher risk of having codiseases or more and more obvious symptoms... But I did not want to discuss this b/c I have absolutely NO F...ING IDEA WHAT THE HECK IS WRONG WITH MY DAMN BODY...

Just wanted to add other’s opinion. And I have never said that I don’t believe there are infections in some of us that can be treated... Unfortunately I don’t have any :-(
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
Perhaps you actually do, and perhaps they haven't been properly identified. :eek:

We live in a world where doctors practice "cookbook" medicine, where there's a recipe to be followed for each ailment. But ours is in a chapter that hasn't been written yet, so when a zebra comes walking in the door, they just dont know what to do with us and wish we'd go away.:bang-head:

The problem is, that doesn't help us find answers, does it? We need to find curious doctors who think outside the box...:thumbsup:
 

FMMM1

Senior Member
Messages
513
@Learner1 Right but my GP did the antibody tests...I think everyone here has a different trigger

If you look at this, Raman spectroscopy potential blood based diagnostic test, then it appears to indicate that people with ME/CFS have impaired cellular energy production [https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2018/an/c8an01437j#!divAbstract]. I.e. all of those tested had the same result - elevated intracellular phenylalanine. Same goes for Ron Davis's data from the Seahorse (impaired cellular energy production) and the nano needle [impedence test]. Ron Tompkins pointed out that some diseases have different starting points but converge on a common outcome [OMF Symposium 2018 - my summary].

What we need is data. E.g. does everyone with ME/CFS have elevated intracellular tryptophan (Phair OMF Symposium 2018]?


Consider writing to your elected representative i.e. to request funding for ME/CFS research including the development of a diagnostic test.
I've written to the European Union Committee on the Environment, Public Health and Food Safety (ENVI) requesting that they lobby for funding for research into ME/CFS including the development of a diagnostic test [https://forums.phoenixrising.me/ind...ch-theyre-working-for-you.61516/#post-1003111].
Currently the ENVI Committee is lobbying for increased funding for research into Lyme disease and the development of a diagnostic test.
In 2016 the European Commission [European Union civil service] said [regarding Lyme disease] that "Both basic research and the development of new diagnostics, treatments and vaccines for Lyme borreliosis are funded by EU research and innovation framework programmes. The total EU contribution to such projects since 2007 amounts to EUR 33.9 million [US dollars]" [http://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-8-2016-008631-ASW_EN.html].

ME/CFS received no funding from the European Union [http://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-8-2017-006901-ASW_EN.html].