Choline on the Brain? A Guide to Choline in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
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Combining Fred's and Rich's protocols

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Christopher, Jul 12, 2012.

  1. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

    Is there anyone effectively combining advice from both Freddd and Rich? It seems from my reading that the major difference between the 2 are dosages of MB12 (Fred advocating higher and Rich advocating lower) and the use of folinic acid vs. methylfolates. Aside from that, am I missing anything?

    I stopped pursuing methylation a couple of years ago, but would like to start experimenting with it again.
  2. maddietod

    maddietod Senior Member

    East Coast, USA
    I'm still playing with this. I've pretty much switched from Rich's to Freddd's supplements, but I don't take the Jarrow or any of the extra supplements. Just the vitamins/minerals and 1000-2000mcg mb12. I might go back to Rich's multi, since I don't think folic acid is bad for me.

    BUT, something has recently made my sleep horrible, so everything is back on the board. The only gain I've gotten from these protocols is better skin, so I've stopped completely (today) to see what happens to my sleep.
  3. SickOfSickness

    SickOfSickness Senior Member

    I am interested in this too. I started Freddd's but I'm confused.
  4. Charles555nc

    Charles555nc Senior Member

    It took me a long time to get over my methyl folate start up reaction, like 2 months of only 400mcg methyl folate, and now I can take 1600mcg if I want. Methyl folate/methyl b12 are both good for repairing nerves, which is a concern for me.
  5. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

    Freddd is very much against NAC and has said it dysregulates the methyl cycle entirely for months (like 6 months). Also I thought Rich advocated hydroxycobalamin (a form the body cannot use w/o changing it to mB12 and many people with genetic defects cannot do this).

    However I am not that familiar with Rich's protocol so I wantt to make a comment about Freddd' seems people here often assume they are taking Freddd's because they are taking mB12 Jarrow (his protocol is specific that it MUST be one of the few brands that actually deliver significant quantities of mB12), when in fact Fredd's protocol is very extensive. Most likely if you are bad enough to be trying protcols to get you well it is more than one nutrient you are missing and getting your biochemistry going again will require extensive supplementation (it does for me and for many). Methyls are used to turn on/off biochemical reactions...and once they are turned on, they require nutrients to run. I also want to comment that although he does not list it (no idea why) Fredd takes DHEA and pregnenolone. Indeed, his protocol would not work for me w/o it. idk if it is because I have two CBS +/+ genes and testosterone regulates those. Last I heard Freddd was taing 100mg pregnenolone and 25mg DHEA.

  6. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

    United States
    Yeah, I'm taking most of the supplements in Freddd's protocol, but I'm also taking hydroxocobalamin and folinic acid. Also, my dose is closer to what Rich recommends rather than Freddd. I have a lot of health issues that I don't expect to be resolved any time soon. Sorry, but just methylation and supplements alone don't work for everyone. I hate to be the bearer of bad news. I hope others have better success than me.
  7. caledonia


    OH, USA
    There are many things which affect methylation. You may also have to address those specifically if methylation supps alone don't clear them up. Those would be the same things that may have preciptated your ME/CFS or may have developed due to years of poor methylation. So that would be the gut, metals, viruses, toxins, undue stress, mold, etc.

    The Nutreval test is a good way to find out what nutrients you need besides mB12 and folate, and what other things (guts, metals, toxins) may be affecting you. About only thing it doesn't cover is viruses.

    Rich advocated functional testing, which Freddd does not.
    Lotus97 likes this.
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Salt Lake City
    I also suggest that the Dose of the COMBINED MeCbl And AdoCbl be titrated up from very low until the minimum effective amount, about 100mcg absorbed it appears to be in most people, and then adjust to the responses. This allows healing to be turned on a layer at a time. Different layers take different doses. Whereas 100mcg a day may be enough for the body it might take 5,000mcg a day for the peripheral nervous system to heal and 30,000mcg a day for the CNS. This is on top of a modest low dose b-complex and other basic items. Then as things happen, like low potassium and low folate, that titrations to effectiveness. The whole complex structure evolves, as one sees what does and doesn't happen at each level and adjusts the nutrients. If one jumps in with everything all at once there is no way of knowing what effect each individual item has so adjustments can't be easily made. And as I have said before, sometimes it pays to start the titrations over and rebuild the nutrient structure if it has become a tower of Babel and impossible to interpret effectively. Sometimes it is necessary to go back to the "Gentlemen, this is a football" level of things as Vince Lombardi demonstrated to help get a people to the same level of understanding. Every time something goes wrong I backtrack to where things were working correctly. So no after the b2 experience, I'm having to backtrack and rebalance in order to turn on healing again at any level.

    One day three company leaders were on their way to a conference, a software engineer, a project planner and a VP. The car stalled on the way down a hill and wouldn't start at the bottom. The project planner started talking about the critical path analysis of what was needed to get the car going. The VP said to set up a study committee. The software engineer said "you two have it all wrong. What we need to do is push the car back to the top of the hill, get it started and see if it fails again while going down the hill. Then if we can duplicate the failure every time we can figure out what is wrong."
  9. musicfreak


    Since Rich's protocol is geared towards people with CFS/FM I'm going with that one and also cause it seems like a more gentler approach. Rich was also involved in a successful study with Dr. Nathan using his protocol and he has also worked with Dr. Amy Yasko who's a pioneer in this type of treatment. I am also adding in additional supplements that Freddd suggests. But I don't want to take high doses of B12 and Folate just yet. So I'm doing Rich's low doses and also treating myself for candida, viruses, bacteria, mold toxins, adrenal , Lyme etc as they are a factor in it too. If after a few months if I'm not better I will give Freddd's protocol more thought but the potassium issue is what scares me. A lot of us don't have doctors that understand these mutations so I'm sure there are lots of people treating themselves so we have to be careful. Also a lot of us probably don't have the same mutations that Freddd has. I think they are both good protocols, one has to decide which one is best for them or combine them which is what I'm doing. We're lucky to have had Rich and also Freddd for their valuable input which has helped many people.

    Good luck to everyone.

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