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Clostridium Butyricum - A Game Changer?

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by adreno, May 7, 2015.

  1. jjxx

    jjxx Senior Member

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    I don't know other people, but I would take whatever strains that make me feel good in the meanwhile watch for potential depletion of other strains. By trial and fail, I realized that probiotics have laid a crucial foundation for my recovery and foolishly replacing it with larch extract has cost me lost nearly half of what I have gained.
    What I am curious most at this point of time besides combating my yeast overgrowth with various probiotics is how to main gut health with probiotics in long term.
     
  2. jjxx

    jjxx Senior Member

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    A lot of thanks....
     
  3. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    LAG was the worst thing I ever took, it made me feel so toxic. I took it only once at a dose of about 20mg.
     
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  4. IThinkImTurningJapanese

    IThinkImTurningJapanese Moderator

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    Dr. Kenny de Meirleir was asked his opinion on FMT and he replied that interventions like that don't have a lasting effect. With ME/CFS the gut reverts back to a state of illness.

    So, It sounds like we need daily supplementation until the cause of this disruption is alleviated.

    I find foods, like Kimchi, yoghurt, natto, sauerkraut, kefir, to be the most effective at keeping my gut healthier. It's hard though.

    I have one supplement called Biofermin S, it's on that Rakuten page, it is very powerful at stabilising my gut but if I take it too often it seems to be countering the benefits I get from Miyarisan.

    tl;dr supplement daily, and pay attention.
     
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  5. Aubry

    Aubry Senior Member

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    I had overgrowth of Clostridium Butyricum... KDM wanted to lower this with antibiotics
     
  6. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    So I have recently had some success using Mutaflor (e. coli). And since I've read on Lassesen's blog that E. Coli and CB antagonizes each other that leaves me a bit bewildered. Would taking one necessarily decrease the other? Is it possible to increase both of them, if taken at different times? How about if both species are low? Perhaps @alicec has something to say about this?
     
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  7. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    I don't know much about this.

    I've done a quick google to see what is known and what Lassesen's statement is based on.

    He quotes Miyarison who in turn just give a single sentence report about in vitro experiments where C. butyricum and 20 E.coli strains were grown together in dishes; growth of all strains was inhibited.

    I found other studies such as this one which looked at just one nasty E. coli strain. Co-culture in vitro again inhibited growth. It seems that the butyric and lactic acid produced by C. butyricum might have been responsible, so presumably other butyrate producers would have the same effect.

    They also showed that C. butyricum inhibited the adhesion of the E. coli strain to a gut epithelial cell line in vitro. Finally they showed that pretreatment of mice with C. butyricum protected them from subsequent E. coli infection; post-treatment diminished lethality.

    A similar in vivo experiment was done in chickens.

    So C. butyricum certainly seems able to directly affect growth of at least some E. coli strains and its presence can prevent or diminish establishment of serious E. coli infections - in mice and chickens at least.

    I guess we need to distinguish between the normal to and fro that goes on all the time in the gut (many species are antagonistic to others - they keep each other in check) and the situation where the gut is exposed to a large amount of a single species, either via a supplement or via an infection.

    In the former case, all we can do is let the gut work it out for itself - this is its normal function.

    In the latter, it would seem prudent not to take C. butyricum and E.coli supplements at the same time. If both seem beneficial then I guess alternating makes sense.

    I don't really know if either of these probiotics substantially alter the gut flora or whether like most probiotics they exert their effects as they transit through the gut (yes I know they are human gut species, but do they actually colonise when given orally?). Assuming that they do, how the gut chooses to balance the two is impossible to predict and I agree, a bit mind-boggling.

    They only way to know I guess would be to do a series of gut DNA tests before, during and after the probiotics. Unfortunately I'm fairly sure that for both Clostridium and Escherichia, the 16S DNA sequencing technique used by uBiome and American Gut is unable to reliably distinguish species/strains so it might not be terribly helpful.
     
  8. Vphoenix

    Vphoenix

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    This thread rocks! Thanks!
     
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  9. jpcv

    jpcv Senior Member

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    @alicec hard to know if probiotocs alter the flora or not, or if they do,how long it lasts.
    My personal experience tells me that the most important factor is a good diet.
    Probiotics seem to work for a short period of time, then I´m back to my "normal ME condition".
    Please note that my gut is better than before, but it has no important impact on my disease course. My GUT is better, my ME not.
    PAMPS + probiotics worked well, but gaain for a short period. The same for Kefir
    No benefit for detox diet+laxatives +high doses of probiotics.
     
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  10. SherDa

    SherDa

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    Just stopping by to update. Calcium has been the most important supplement for me in regard to slow motility (and actually to almost all of my symptoms). My digestive tract freezes right up if my calcium gets too low.

    I no longer have to micro-manage my potassium, sodium or magnesium. The symptoms I treated by managing electrolytes (mostly fatigue, muscle pain/spasms and low blood pressure/POTS-like symptoms) all respond much better to calcium. I just avoided calcium out of fear and it greatly delayed my recovery.

    I'm sure I've had low zinc, B6, D, A and K2 my entire life, so no surprise that my calcium metabolism is so out of whack. I'm trying to learn more about calcium's roles to try to understand the reasons that it makes me feel so much better. It obviously plays a huge role in my illness. Somehow it even greatly improves my mood. Calcium (along with zinc) has improved my brain fog so much that I'm now working full-time and have gone back to college three-quarters time.

    Any way, to fit into the context of this thread, it is essential for gut motility for me, and without it, I develop symptoms of slow transit, gastroparesis, esophageal spasms and anorexia. The slow transit reaches a point where my gut will become horribly distended and uncomfortable. My tongue develops a white coating. I get horrible restless leg syndrome and have too much histamine to sleep. Basically, I develop a lot of symptoms of SIBO/dysbiosis when my calcium gets low. I have a flat stomach and otherwise great digestion when I take calcium as needed.

    I still believe that gut dysbiosis can be very damaging and needs to be corrected. (For example, I need a lot of B6 and it seems that it quite possibly is wasted by kynurenine production.) But at least now I'm free to work on my gut health as long as I respect my calcium needs. Before when I attempted to use prebiotic fibers, I would end up horribly distended with a lot of gut pain. Now I can tolerate high amounts of pro- and prebiotics. I don't think it was going to be possible to fix my gut without addressing my low calcium first.

    Had it been possible for me to improve my gut health, I still would have had multiple vitamin and mineral deficiencies so I believe I likely wouldn't have found much improvement from working on gut health alone. My calcium still would have been low from decades of low vitamin D, A, K2, et cetera, and I still would have had fatigue and brain fog.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
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  11. Jeff2

    Jeff2

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    Update, I am still taking Clostridium butyricum tablets daily, and still making a yogurt from tablets of it and eating the yogurt as well daily. As far as I can tell, it has made a huge improvement in my health, far less fatigue, far less brain fog, much better stamina, and it seems to have even cleared my sinuses to the point where I can breath better with my mouth closed. I didn't realize it would do that.

    I am going to try to attach a picture of the yogurt I make with it in my yogurt maker. I just take a small mason jar, sterilize it in boiling water, then add boiled whole milk (oridinary store-bought homogenized milk) to the sterilzed mason jar, the put a lid on it loosely and allow it to come to room temperature gradually. Then I put in one tablet of Clostridium butyricum, put the lid back on and put the mason jar in my yogurt maker and leave it for about 24 hours. It separates strongly into curds and whey. The picture shows the separation into curds and whey with the curds floating on top. I am shining a flash light through it so you can see it better.

    IMG_20180314_074651.jpg
     
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  12. NotThisGuy

    NotThisGuy Senior Member

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    @Jeff2
    How long are you taking this probiotic?
     
  13. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Glad you found something to help.

    Can you quantify the improvement you think came from Clostridium butyricum on the ME/CFS scale of: mild, moderate and severe? Where were you on the scale before starting this probiotic, and where are you now after taking it for some time?

    If any treatment can produce a 1 level improvement on this scale (eg, move you from severe to moderate; or move you from moderate to mild), then that is major.
     
  14. Jeff2

    Jeff2

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    Since June 2017.
     
  15. Jeff2

    Jeff2

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    I think I went from mild CFS to almost no CFS because of it, and the fibers/resistant starches I take with it (inulin, raw cold potato starch, etc.). However, I noticed when I stopped taking it for a few weeks, my mild CFS symptoms creep back in. So, I will have to continue it for the rest of my life. I have also lost weight and am back into my old college clothes again. I am not sure if that has anything to do with it or not.
     
  16. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    That's pretty good going, and that counts as a 1 level improvement on that scale.
     
  17. IThinkImTurningJapanese

    IThinkImTurningJapanese Moderator

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    I have come up one level on that scale and Miyarisan isn't the only thing responsible for that.

    Miyarisan is, however, the primary treatment that has reduced MCS for me to almost no reaction. It has also reduced OI to tolerable levels. That improvement (OI) didn't come until several months of treatment though.
     
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  18. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    What were the other treatments that, in combination with Clostridium butyricum, helped you move up 1 level on the scale?
     
  19. IThinkImTurningJapanese

    IThinkImTurningJapanese Moderator

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    Traditional Chinese Medicine, one that is a known Anti-viral. It also includes Licorice to help raise blood pressure.

    Ohh, CBD oil has improved the quality of my sleep and reduced brainfog significantly. I think it may be responsible for improvements in nerve function. My signature improved with it, as well as my eyesight.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2018
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  20. tango

    tango Senior Member

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    I also have come up a 1 level improvement from the probiotics alone. I did not find Miyarasan helpful. The AOR probiotic helped. They have since changed the formula and I am not finding it as good. Perhaps I have levelled off but I just don't feel it helps me as much as the old formula
     
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