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Chronic fatigue syndrome from vagus nerve infection: psychoneuroimmunological hypothesis

Wayne

Senior Member
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4,308
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Ashland, Oregon
Bump because I discovered this paper..

Hi @JaimeS,

Just to mention, even though this thread is about infections in the vagus nerve, VN dysfunction can also result from structural issues. Things like whiplash can throw off the atlas (uppermost cervical vertebra) and compress all ten major cranial nerves, including the vagus nerve. I got a lot of relief after doing a procedure called Atlas Profilax, which repositioned my atlas to reduce the compression.

Also, I posted earlier in this thread that I thought the article linked below is very good. I just reread it, and would highly recommend at least a perusal...

Heart attacks, CFS, herpes virus infection and the vagus nerve
Written by Gabriela Segura, MD
 

lauluce

as long as you manage to stay alive, there's hope
Messages
591
Location
argentina
my first symptoms where paresthesias starting at the tongue and then spreading to to back of the throat, face, scalp, etc. accompanying this where canker sores at the palate that lasted for many months, the only objectively measurably symptom. 2 years after first symptoms, I experience both genital and lip herpes, having not had any sexual relationship before. In the last month, ulcers appeared again alongside new herpes lesions, and and increase in pharesthesia. I suspect All of this might be caused by herpes simplex virus I (of which I have a very high igg antibody count) infecting my peripheral nervous system... looking at one of the pictures in this thread I noticed how close of the area where I have worse paresthesia (te highest parts of the back of my throat) the vagous nerve starts... what do you think? might I have an herpesvirus infection of the vagus nerve? note; I have also all the classic symptoms of ME: fatigue, postexcertional malaise, POTS, you name it
 

natasa778

Senior Member
Messages
1,774
Hi guys have you seen this (it has been posted elsewhere on the forum, in 'other health news' but probably relevant to ME and this thread

New research indicates that Parkinson’s disease may begin in the gastrointestinal tract and spread through the vagus nerve to the brain.

The research has presented strong evidence that Parkinson’s disease begins in the gastrointestinal tract and spreads via the vagus nerve to the brain. Many patients have also suffered from gastrointestinal symptoms before the Parkinson’s diagnosis is made.
 

JaimeS

Senior Member
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3,408
Location
Silicon Valley, CA

Violeta

Senior Member
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2,949
I believe this is a reasonable hypothesis at this point. So how would one go about addressing a vagus nerve infection - or any kind of nerve infection?

-J
Figure out, first of all, the pathogen?

http://www.prd-journal.com/article/S1353-8020(14)00091-1/abstract

And since iron deposits are found in the brain of Parkinson's patients,

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1850114/
Endoplasmic reticulum stress causes EBV lytic replication.


iron metabolism should be considered part of the picture.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21849482

Iron dysregulation causes ER stress.

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/bri/2011/896474/
(notice the CD4/CD8 ratio imbalance often seen in EBV)
"The surprise caused by the discovery of a MHC-I-like protein partaking in iron homeostasis was diluted by previous research, fertile in reports describing immunological abnormalities in HH patients. Accordingly, higher CD4+/CD8+ ratios [12], later attributed to defective numbers of CD8+ T cells."
 
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JaimeS

Senior Member
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3,408
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Silicon Valley, CA
Figure out, first of all, the pathogen?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_infections_of_the_central_nervous_system

Since this list contains all the usual suspects (Lyme, TB, Toxoplasmosis, Guillain-Barre) I feel I'm right back where I started. Here's a more scholarly source, for those who have access to research gate:

https://www.researchgate.net/public...Cellular_and_Molecular_Mechanisms_of_Invasion

(I checked, it's not available on pubmed for free. Lists many of the same pathogens as the wiki article, but also discusses mechanism of action/crossing of BBB.)

iron metabolism should be considered part of the picture.

Iron metabolism is important to many bacterial infections, regardless of where they occur:

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...c_bacteria/links/0fcfd510f8eac2046e000000.pdf

Again, we've got the usual suspects: Yersinia, Enterobacteria, Mycos... They all sequester iron. If they sequester iron in the CNS, that accounts for iron deposits in the CNS.

I think it's a huge advance to consider that Parkinson's might arise from a gut infection. That's mind-blowing!

Us? Maybe not so much. These are the pathogens typically found in people with ME/CFS. That they should infect the CNS directly seems a foregone conclusion, given our symptoms.

I'm seriously not trying to be dismissive! I feel like there's something I'm probably missing. Due to the iron in my brain. ;)

-J
 

halcyon

Senior Member
Messages
2,482
Is infection of the vagus nerve something that can only be demonstrated on autopsy? I can't imagine someone doing surgery just to check. What are the methods for detecting such a thing?
He briefly discusses this in the paper:

The current gold
standard of direct evidence to support the VNIH may be CFS patient
cadaver studies consisting of immunohistohemical staining
for activated glia, inflammation, and active virus infection within
vagus nerve, its paraganglia and ganglia, or NTS. However, the
most common marker for glial activation, glial fibrillary acidic protein
(GFAP), may not be present in paraganglionic satellite glial
cells [74]. Furthermore, given the likely difficulty finding suitable
cadavers, the fact that CFS infection could be caused by any number
of neurotropic viruses (some of which the majority of humans
already harbor), and the difficulty of dissecting out all possible
infection locations in the long and highly branched vagus nerve,
other models and approaches should also be considered.
In patients, magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) after injection of
gadolinium can be used to detect viral lesions in tissue within the
central nervous system [116]. This can only be accomplished within
the central nervous system because gadolinium contrasting
delineates a disruption of the blood–brain barrier and not a viral
lesion per se. Live imaging of an infection in peripheral vagal paraganglia
would be more difficult. In vivo electrophysiological
recordings of vagus nerve are possible [117] but invasive. A new
line of research should seek to develop novel protocols for resting-
state and functional imaging of vagus nerve and brainstem
NTS in CFS patients. In addition, the use of translocator protein
radioligands in positron emission tomography (PET) imaging has
shown promise as a method of imaging microglial activation in
neurodegenerative disorder-induced neuroinflammation [118],
and may prove valuable in CFS research. Such methods could provide
both support for the general hypothesis and important information
that could inform individual treatment strategies.
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,949
@JaimeS Referring back to Parkinson's, iron in the substantia nigra and high incidence of Epstein Barr virus in brain tissue, you work on those areas.
 

JaimeS

Senior Member
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3,408
Location
Silicon Valley, CA
Interesting, @halcyon ! Thanks. :)

So to summarize, you can find:
  • On autopsy
  • Using gadolinium to detect lesions in general, but it's difficult to tell why they are there (it would not be specific to an infection).
  • Electrophysiological readings, which are 'invasive' (they do this for MS, right?)
  • Translocator protein radioligands (not a combo I've heard before, but I assume that refers to radioactive ligand proteins!) - which might show BBB issues, but that again points to inflammation, right? Not viral infection per se.
  • PET to show microglial activation/inflammation, but again, it won't detect the pathogen or whether there is a pathogen, just show whether inflammation is occurring, right?

It does seem like autopsy is the only way to be sure an infection occurred, and even then it may not show up ("However, the most common marker for glial activation, glial fibrillary acidic protein (GFAP), may not be present in paraganglionic satellite glial cells.")

It's awesome you were able to find a source that broke that down so clearly! :)

-J
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,949
Interesting, @halcyon ! Thanks. :)

So to summarize, you can find:
  • On autopsy
  • Using gadolinium to detect lesions in general, but it's difficult to tell why they are there (it would not be specific to an infection).
  • Electrophysiological readings, which are 'invasive' (they do this for MS, right?)
  • Translocator protein radioligands (not a combo I've heard before, but I assume that refers to radioactive ligand proteins!) - which might show BBB issues, but that again points to inflammation, right? Not viral infection per se.
  • PET to show microglial activation/inflammation, but again, it won't detect the pathogen or whether there is a pathogen, just show whether inflammation is occurring, right?

It does seem like autopsy is the only way to be sure an infection occurred, and even then it may not show up ("However, the most common marker for glial activation, glial fibrillary acidic protein (GFAP), may not be present in paraganglionic satellite glial cells.")

It's awesome you were able to find a source that broke that down so clearly! :)

-J
Yeah, autopsy would be too late.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,873
I should point out that Jonathan Edwards uncovered something of a potential flaw in Michael VanElzakker's vagus nerve infection theory of ME/CFS, which is as follows:

It is the satellite glial cells in the vagus nerve that Michael VanElzakker proposes may be chronically infected in ME/CFS patients. Like any infected cell, these infected satellite glial cells will be secreting inflammatory cytokines to signal they are infected.

The vagus nerve has receptors for such inflammatory cytokines: the vagus has IL-1β receptors, and I think also TNF-α receptors, to detect these cytokines released from infections. The vagus is an infection detector. When the vagus detects these cytokines from infections, it then signals to the brain to switch on sickness behavior (which manifests many of the symptoms of ME/CFS).

However — and here is the problem spotted by Jonathan Edwards — these vagus nerve IL-1β and TNF-α receptors are found at the far end of the dendrite of a vagus sensory neuron, and this position is several centimeters away from the cell body of the sensory neuron, where the satellite glial cells are located.

So there is a distance of several centimeters between the infection and the infection-detecting IL-1β and TNF-α receptors.

Now secreted IL-1β and TNF-α only have a short range, so any IL-1β or TNF-α released from infected satellite glial cells would likely not reach, in any great concentration, these IL-1β and TNF-α receptors located several centimeters away.

This means a satellite glial cell infection in the vagus nerve would probably not be activating the IL-1β and TNF-α receptors to any great degree, and thus this infection may not be able to induce sickness behavior in the way Michael VanElzakker proposes.

See this post, and the prior and subsequent discussion in that thread for more details of this possible flaw.



I did suggest in that post that perhaps the Schwann cells of the vagus might be chronically infected, rather than the satellite glial cells. Schwann cells are found in closer proximity to the IL-1β and TNF-α receptors. However, Schwann cell infections appear to be very rare. So whether this idea can rescue the vagus nerve infection theory, I am not sure. Certainly though Schwann cells possess both the CAR and DAF receptors which coxsackievirus B uses to enter and infect cells (see this post).



However, there is another possibility that may keep Michael VanElzakker's very intriguing vagus nerve / sickness behavior theory of ME/CFS alive: I suggested that the vagus itself may not be chronically infected, but rather the cells the vagus connects to may be infected.

And indeed, we know this is the case, as the parietal cells in the stomach, which the efferent vagus directly connects to (and thereby controls their release of stomach acid), have been shown to be chronically infected in 82% of ME/CFS patients (by Dr Chia in his 2007 study). So the vagus is in close proximity to these chronically infected parietal cells.

Thus provided that the vagus IL-1β and TNF-α receptors themselves are in sufficiently close proximity to these parietal cells, these receptors may be getting persistently activated by the inflammatory cytokines secreted by the infected parietal cells, thus causing the vagus to signal to the brain to switch on sickness behavior.

However, I am not sure just how close the vagus IL-1β and TNF-α receptors are to the parietal cells that the efferent vagus innervates. To answer this question would require in-depth knowledge of vagus anatomy. Perhaps @Jonathan Edwards might know.



By the way, I came across this interesting study by Patricio T Huerta that actually measured the electrical signals send along the afferent vagus nerve to the brain when the nerve is activated by IL-1β or TNF-α.
 
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JaimeS

Senior Member
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3,408
Location
Silicon Valley, CA
@JaimeS Referring back to Parkinson's, iron in the substantia nigra and high incidence of Epstein Barr virus in brain tissue, you work on those areas.

Hmm... your comment as quoted here isn't your comment on my page. You must have edited it - I apologize if the one quoted in this post is not your 'final answer', and I apologize if I'm about to address a point that you eventually deleted.

In light of this new information, it seems we would continue to do as we have been doing: that is, hunting down which pathogen may or may not be causing or contributing to our ill-health and attempting to address it with antibiotics. I was wondering if there was something different / special about nerve infections and how they are addressed. Although I did not go on a long hunt, the only information I was able to come up with regarding how CNS infections vs infections in other body systems are addressed is 'aggressively'. More firepower, longer abx / antivirals.

If it's impossible or nearly so to provide a physician with evidence you have one in the first place, the point is moot either way. So we are still looking at the same range of potential pathogens and potential treatments as before.

-J
 
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JaimeS

Senior Member
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3,408
Location
Silicon Valley, CA
Secreted IL-1β and TNF-α only have a short range, so any IL-1β or TNF-α released from infected satellite glial cells would likely not reach, in any great concentration, these IL-1β and TNF-α receptors located several centimeters away.

Wow - a few centimeters is enough for the molecules to disperse so that they have little to no effect? That's pretty mindblowing, actually.

By the way, I came across this interesting study by Patricio T Huerta that actually measured the electrical signals send along the afferent vagus nerve to the brain when the nerve is activated by IL-1β or TNF-α.

Ugh, my Adobe Flash Player vids haven't been playing sound for the past week. :p I will watch this, though, and I am continuing to go through the related thread with interest.

-J
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,949
Hmm... your comment as quoted here isn't your comment on my page. You must have edited it - I apologize if the one quoted in this post is not your 'final answer', and I apologize if I'm about to address a point that you eventually deleted.

In light of this new information, it seems we would continue to do as we have been doing: that is, hunting down which pathogen may or may not be causing or contributing to our ill-health and attempting to address it with antibiotics. I was wondering if there was something different / special about nerve infections and how they are addressed. Although I did not go on a long hunt, the only information I was able to come up with regarding how CNS infections vs infections in other body systems are addressed is 'aggressively'. More firepower, longer abx.

If it's impossible or nearly so to provide a physician with evidence you have one in the first place, the point is moot either way. So we are still looking at the same range of potential pathogens and potential treatments as before.

-J

Check again, Jaime, it looks the same to me.

One doesn't take abx for viruses, so I suppose you have to be careful what you take, even care with herbals is needed.

Yes, I am trying to figure out how to address pathogens in the CNS and on nerves. You obviously have to address them in the gut, but that doesn't clear up the CNS or nerves. Chinese medicine has a way with dealing with pathogens, I can't explain it fully, but it has to do with cooling down the cells so that the pathogens come out.
 

halcyon

Senior Member
Messages
2,482
PET to show microglial activation/inflammation, but again, it won't detect the pathogen or whether there is a pathogen, just show whether inflammation is occurring, right?
Right. Interesting though that the Japanese ME PET study that came out a year after this paper showed exactly this.

It does seem like autopsy is the only way to be sure an infection occurred, and even then it may not show up
Unfortunately yes and this is what has been found, most recently by Dr. Chia earlier this year where he found enterovirus RNA in the brainstem of a deceased patient.
 

JaimeS

Senior Member
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3,408
Location
Silicon Valley, CA
Right. Interesting though that the Japanese ME PET study that came out a year after this paper showed exactly this.

Too bad the study is so small, but the results - 45% - nearly 200% higher than in controls?! So long as the participants weren't cherry-picked, it's pretty darned compelling. I hope they get enough funding to repeat with additional participants.

Unfortunately yes and this is what has been found, most recently by Dr. Chia earlier this year where he found enterovirus RNA in the brainstem of a deceased patient.

I've heard about this in passing several times. Do you have a source? I would definitely like to see this in a publication. I know Dr. Chia as a practitioner, though; I'm not even aware if he tends to publish.

-J
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,873
Wow - a few centimeters is enough for the molecules to disperse so that they have little to no effect? That's pretty mindblowing, actually.

I have never been able to find a decent exposition of the effective ranges of cytokines, because it does vary. I believe most inflammatory cytokines are autocrines (act only on the cell that released them) and paracrines (act only on the cells adjacent to the cell that released them), and thus have ranges measured in terms of cell widths.

One exception is IL-6, which once released can travel body-wide. In this sense, IL-6 acts more like a hormone than an inflammatory cytokine.
 

halcyon

Senior Member
Messages
2,482
I've heard about this in passing several times. Do you have a source? I would definitely like to see this in a publication. I know Dr. Chia as a practitioner, though; I'm not even aware if he tends to publish.
He hasn't published anything yet but he describes the case in some detail at the end of his Invest in ME talk this year. He has published around 8 papers on ME.