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"Chronic fatigue syndrome and increased susceptibility to upper respiratory tract infections..."

AndyPandy

Making the most of it
Messages
1,928
Location
Australia
@SOC I am definately in the group that gets frequent viruses. Like you I catch everything and take forever to recover. Then catch something else! I didn't have this problem before developing ME/CFS.

But I also have increasing ANA titres at 1:640 last year up from 1:320 the year before.

Best wishes, Andy
 

SilverbladeTE

Senior Member
Messages
3,043
Location
Somewhere near Glasgow, Scotland
Norovirus has floored me a few times in recent years
turning into a Human fountain from both ends was....unwanted :wide-eyed: :eek: o_O :cry: :zippit: :ill:
:p

My God though, the pain it set off with the ME was unbelievable, since I knew it was short lived bug didn't ask for morphine but that's how bad it was, ugh
 

msf

Senior Member
Messages
3,650
If you watch Armin Swartzerbach's video in one of the Lyme threads, he makes quite a big deal of Chlamydia Pneumoniae.
 

SOC

Senior Member
Messages
7,849
Could that low IgM just be a comorbid condition that you have alongside ME/CFS, that may be causing increase susceptibility to colds?
It's possible that I have a separate immune condition in addition to ME/CFS, although it would seem that the odds of having an extremely rare immune dysfunction (SigM) on top of ME/CFS are so small as to be practically non-existent. It's more likely that whatever is causing my immune problems in ME/CFS is also at the root of the SigM. But nobody really knows. We know far too little about immune dysfunction in ME/CFS.
If you watch Armin Swartzerbach's video in one of the Lyme threads, he makes quite a big deal of Chlamydia Pneumoniae.
I'm always fighting C. pneumoniae. All kinds of things make me wonder about Lyme, but so far I've tested negative.
 

SOC

Senior Member
Messages
7,849
I also have c.pneumoniae. @SOC do you take anything to treat it?
I have taken clarithromycin with some success, but no doctor will keep me on it very long. Abx are always a tough call because you don't want to destroy your gut bacteria, but when you need the abx, you need them. Since I usually recover from the worst of the infection... eventually... the docs seem to think I should just keep toughing it out. That may all change now that my immunoglobulins are all below or at the low end of normal range. Either I'll end up hospitalized from a URTI and get abx there, or some doctor will eventually decide I have something like CVID and be more willing to prescribe abx.

ETA: On the advice of my specialist, I take 2 Equilibrant daily to help with my URTIs. It doesn't do much, if anything, for the acute phase, but I do seem to have fewer URTIs while I'm taking Equilibrant -- down from 6-8 per year to 1 or 2. It's possible that the Equilibrant helps my immune system keep C. pneumoniae under better control.
 
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AndyPandy

Making the most of it
Messages
1,928
Location
Australia
Thanks @SOC. I have a script for doxy but have been putting off trying it due to the effects on my gut. Also my ME/CFS specialist wanted me to get methylation established before trying the doxy.

Just starting methylation experiment today! ;)
 

msf

Senior Member
Messages
3,650
Hi SOC, I would recommend you watch the video I mentioned, as he talks about the percentages of patients who test negative on the different tests. It's pretty alarming stuff!
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,858
It's possible that I have a separate immune condition in addition to ME/CFS, although it would seem that the odds of having an extremely rare immune dysfunction (SigM) on top of ME/CFS are so small as to be practically non-existent. It's more likely that whatever is causing my immune problems in ME/CFS is also at the root of the SigM. But nobody really knows. We know far too little about immune dysfunction in ME/CFS.

I am always interested in knowing how researchers decide whether a medical condition is comorbid to an illness, or whether that condition is considered part of the main illness.


For example, in ME/CFS a significant percentage of patients have generalized anxiety disorder (GAD). However, if you look at the CCC diagnostic criteria for ME/CFS, GAD is not considered a symptom of ME/CFS (although the CCC do say that anxiety may arise after stress). However, GAD is known to be a common comorbidity of ME/CFS. And GAD you can have just on its own, without having ME/CFS.

Compare this to how, in the CCC, the condition of emotional lability, aka pseudo bulbar affect (= unstable, rapidly changing or exaggerated emotions like bursting into tears over the smallest thing) is considered to be a symptom of ME/CFS, even though I think it is relatively rare in ME/CFS, judging by the lack of discussion about this symptom on this forum.

So why is emotional lability considered part of ME/CFS, whereas generalized anxiety disorder is not, even though the latter is much more common in ME/CFS patients?

The only answer I can see here is that generally you do not have emotional lability as a condition on its own; it tends only to appear within neurological disease or stroke. Whereas GAD you can have on its own.

So this could be the answer regarding whether you define a condition as a comorbidity to your main disease, or one of the symptoms of the main disease. If you can have the condition/symptom on its own without any other disease, then it perhaps researchers will consider that to be comorbidity of the main disease; whereas if a condition/symptom does not occur on its own, then this condition will be considered as a symptom of the main disease.


Another example is IBS: many ME/CFS patients have IBS, but IBS is not considered part of ME/CFS: the CCC considers that IBS is a common comorbidity of ME/CFS.


Does it make any difference whether a condition is comorbid to ME/CFS, or actually part of ME/CFS? Possibly. Perhaps if it is a comorbid condition, it will not necessarily improve or be cured if you improve or cure your ME/CFS. Whereas if a condition is a part of ME/CFS, presumably it will be ameliorated or disappear alongside all the other ME/CFS symptoms if you happen to improve or cure your ME/CFS.

So if a condition is comorbid to ME/CFS, it probably needs to be addressed and treated independently to your ME/CFS treatments.


In the case of IgM deficiency, I see that this can occur on its own (albeit rarely), so perhaps it might be best seen as a comorbid condition to ME/CFS.

IgM deficiency may of course share some common causal factors with your ME/CFS.

Regarding such common causal factors: in my case, the virus I caught triggered ME/CFS, generalized anxiety disorder, depression with lots of anhedonia, and some leg weakness which I think may be mild polymyositis. So this virus appeared to be a common causal factor of these four conditions; but these four are considered separate medical conditions. And indeed, I find I have to treat them separately, as I find medications that work for one will not necessarily help another.
 
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lansbergen

Senior Member
Messages
2,512
Does it make any difference whether a condition is comorbid to ME/CFS, or actually part of ME/CFS? Possibly. Perhaps if it is a comorbid condition, it will not necessarily improve or be cured if you improve or cure your ME/CFS. Whereas if a condition is a part of ME/CFS, presumably it will be ameliorated or disappear alongside all the other ME/CFS symptoms if you happen to improve or cure your ME/CFS.

Yep
 

Dolphin

Senior Member
Messages
17,567
This data was collected in 1999 and 2000. So it's a pity if there was psychological speculation by the authors about possible reporting bias by ME/CFS patients in a 2008 paper.
 

Dolphin

Senior Member
Messages
17,567
From the discussion section. It's a pity more issues weren't mentioned e.g. low NK cell numbers and/or function.
One must now ask what underlies the greater infection in the CFS group. Immunological abnormalities have been observed in this group [13] and these may be related to chronic stress, fatigue, or psychopathology. Chronic stress increases susceptibility to URTIs but it has been difficult to link this result to specific immunological mechanisms.[5] However, recent research [27] suggests an underlying psychoneurological basis for the association between stress and infection which may also be relevant to the present results.

It has often been widely assumed that chronic stress acts through the direct effects of elevated circulating cortisol. This now seems unlikely and what seems to be important is how target tissues respond to cortisol. Glucocorticoid receptor resistance (GCR) is the decrease in the sensitivity of immune cells to glucocorticoid hormones that terminate the inflammatory response. Chronic stress has been shown to induce GCR. In URTIs the signs and symptoms reflect the release of pro-inflammatory cytokines.

These pro-inflammatory cytokines may also underlie the behavioural malaise associated with such illnesses,[28] and possibly some of the symptoms of CFS. The link between stress and GCR may, therefore, underlie the link between stress and susceptibility to URTIs.
 

Dolphin

Senior Member
Messages
17,567
Remember there were 57 people in each group
Smith2005 Table 4.png


Analysis of an upper respiratory tract infection during the study period

Upper respiratory illnesses were initially self-diagnosed and symptoms were recorded. The volunteers were asked to contact the researchers within a few days of developing a cold or influenza. A sub-lingual temperature reading, nasal secretion weight, and symptom check list were recorded by the researcher. Nasal and throat swabs were taken by a nurse. All assessments were carried out in mid- to late morning. Those participants who remained free from illness returned to the clinic every four weeks and provided samples for virological assays. This allowed identification of subclinical infections (the presence of virus in participants who reported no clinical illness).

Incidence of illness

Overall, 65% (n= 37) of the CFS patients compared to only 30% (n= 17) of the controls reported URTIs (Yates’chi-square = 12.7;p< .0005). Six of the CFS patients and five of the controls reported two colds. There were no significant differences between the groups in the length or severity of the illnesses (Table 4). The absence of increased temperature in those with an illness suggested that we were studying colds rather than influenza.
 
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Dolphin

Senior Member
Messages
17,567
Smith2005 Table 5.png


Some infections might have been missed:

Virology

The volunteers gave blood samples (5 ml), and nasal and throat swabs at each visit. Aliquots of each sample were stored and used for laboratory investigations. Pernasal and throat swab samples taken during the acute phase of infection were subjected to virus isolation techniques at 33°C and 37°C using humanfibroblastic (MRC5) cells. Nucleic acid sequence-based amplification was utilised for the detection of rhinovirus, enterovirus, and respiratory syncytial virus (RSV) sequences in swab samples. Assays for detection of RSV RNA in pernasal swab samples were developed during the course of this study. Serum samples taken were subjected to a respiratory screenfirst for high-level antibody and then for significant (fourfold or greater) rises in antibody titre by the complement fixation test

Infection

If the increase in number of illnesses reported by the CFS patients reflected a bias in reporting, then one would expect a smaller percentage of confirmed infections in the CFS group. This was not the case. Forty-three per cent of the CFS patients who reported URTIs had infection identified (either by significant antibody changes against one or more of the respiratory antigens or virus isolation) as compared to 29% of the controls who reported upper URTIs. Sub-clinical infections were also more prevalent in the CFS group (11%) than the controls (7%).
 
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Messages
19
So what might be options for treating respiratory issues?

I have CFS, low testosterone, very low estrogen, moderate hypothyroid, very poor energy, low motivation, feel so lifeless, anhedonic... and very weak voice and it is difficult to speak. Feels like there is something agitating the back of my throat. I have dust allergy nonsense going on too and generally wake up feeling extremely unrefreshed and often drowsy. Feels like I never have enough fresh air.

I notice btw that certain herbs and supplements make my voice weaker. Eleuthero Root Ginseng makes my voice incredibly weak which is a shame because it helps improve mood and anhedonia a bit.

Other factors possibly involved w infection is redness on the sides of my face and strange spots below my eyes like a mold reaction. Even though allergy testing (arm pricking) indicated I had no mold allergies. I do constantly have allergic rhinitus though.
 
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