Chlamydia pneumoniae and b12 antibodies

[Adster]

I've just discovered that Cpn creates b12 antibodies. I have had a diagnosis of active Cpn many years ago but didn't really follow it up as the doctor I was seeing didn't seem that interested in it. I've never seen this discussed here before as a reason for low b12. Anyone know any more about this? It's also interesting that NAC is one of the 3 things used in a Cpn protocol. NAC at normal-mid range doses makes me feel really good for a while, then really toxic. I've always put this down to mobilization of metals/toxins.

Cpn was discussed in relation to MS on a program on TV last night http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/ms-chlamydia-pneumoniae.19033/

Thoughts anyone?

 

[Marlène]

www.cpnhelp.org is a good start

 

[Adster]

Great site, thanks Marlene. I've also found one suggestion that DMSA will kill one stage of Cpn also. DMSA is another thing that makes me feel better when I use it regularly.

 

[Marlène]

"A remarkable finding:

In this research Dr.'s Cheney, Peterson & Bell sent blood samples from their own Chronic Fatigue Syndrome patients to Dr. Stratton's Vanderbilt Chlamydia pneumoniae lab for testing. According to Dr. Stratton, they tested 100's if not 1000's of such blood samples. These were tested using both ELISA-based serologic methods and PCRi testing using the tests developed by Stratton, et al. at the Vanderbilt Chlamydia Research Laboratory. Dr. Stratton's lab found that the majority (almost 100%) of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome patients were PCR positive for Chlamydia pneumoniae in blood samples."
http://www.cpnhelp.org/chlamydia_pneumoniae_in_0

Cpn is a very underestimated factor in ME, that I'm sure of!
I've been infected for years and I keep all my labresults in an excel sheet. After a while, it causes changes in some betaglobulines, albumine just like it does in parrots! Sometimes you learn more from veterinary studies than human studies.

 

[Adster]

I'm trying to work out why Cpn doesn't seem to be mentioned much as a possible cause these days. I'm going to talk to my doc about testing. Thanks for the info!

 

[mellster]

Yes, when I got sick I had very low b12 (300) and elevated CPN, which reversed in recovery. I am still supplementing and keeping my b12 over 550.

 

[Adster]

Hi Mellster. Did you treat the Cpn specifically?

 

[Marlène]

It takes about 1,5 year with a cocktail of antibiotics to kill Cpn!Have a look at the website www.cpnhelp.org

If left untreated, it can enter your:
- brain (MS, ...)
- bone marrow
- skin (and cause rocacea),
- lungs (pneumonia, mucus, chest pain)
- ...

In 2009 my doctor treated me with 6 weeks of AB, it came back in 10-fold. (Or maybe I should say, it never left?)

My B12 is only 37 now. The load of Cpn is much higher in ME than in MS, that's why it takes a much longer treatment and the herxheimers are quite tough.

 

[celeste]

The best place for information is www.cpnhelp.org.
There was a TV programme broadcast about Cpn (in relation to MS) this week - which can be downloaded at http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/3572695.htm

 

[Adster]

Cheers guys. It was actually that TV show that reignited my interest in this. Going to chase up some testing soon. The thought of treating if it does come back positive again is quite daunting though! Sorry to hear yours is still active Marlene.

 

[Adster]

So, Chlamydia infection requires ATP to survive, and also produces glutamate. When we boost the methylation cycle and provide more ATP, do we also give the infection more energy, and ability to produce exitotoxic glutamate?

 

[mellster]

Adster, what it takes to kill or control CPN likely depends on the inidvidual, the full treatment on the cpnhelp.org site is for the most extreme cases gone out of control. Quite a few people acquire CPN induced walking/community pneumonia in their lifetime and get rid of it / control it without all these drugs and supplements, some recover without any treatment. In my case I took most indicated supplements for a while such as B12 (which was very low with 300 but still almost 10 x the extremely low value of 37 measured for Marlene) which is now consistently over 550 (I am still supplementing with a maintenancne dose of B12), turmeric, many others and esp. NAC. I took 600 mg 2-3 times a day and still take it once a day for maintenance. I never took ABx and my antibodies went down to close enough to normal as I recovered. The only way to find out is to get levels tested and then try the treatments, if you levels are not completely through the roof I would start with supplements + NAC only. Drastically high levels may require ABx, a skilled doctor should know best. One thing I also tried was inhaled glutatione which worked well, too. Regarding ATP, you always need ATP regardless of whether some opportunistic pathogens may feed off of it or not, depriving yourself of it is not a good idea IMO, but again a doctor with expertise in the CPN field should know best. cheers

 

[richvank]

Hi, Adster. As you may know, Chlamydia is an intracellar bacterial infection. Cell-mediated (Th1) immune response is necessary to knock out this type of infection, and that is the immune response that is suppressed in ME/CFS. I suspect that that is why this infection is found in ME/CFS. Under normal conditions, when reduced glutathione is high enough in the cells, Chlamydia are not able to form their disulfide-bonded proteins, and this keeps them from spreading. When glutathione goes down, they are able to propagate. In view of this, I think that the methylation treatment, which raises glutathione, will get Chamydia under control. Best regards, Rich

 

[Adster]

Cheers Rich. Any thoughts on a possible link between bacteria producing glutamate and exitotoxicity that is often experienced when treating methylation problems?

Melster: Thanks for sharing your experience. Once I get my levels tested I might try a longer course of NAC, if I can tolerate it! Cheers.

 

[richvank]

Hi, Adster.
Sorry, I don't know about that.
Rich

 

[place]

I have/had really high levels of CPN, The highest the doctor has ever seen. I do much better when on Doxy.

 

[Marlène]

hi place

what were your levels, do you mind sharing them? I don't find any references.

These are mine:
Chlam.pneum.-IgG-antibodies (ELISA)+ 121 RE/ml <16.0=neg;>22.0=pos
Chlam.pneum.-IgA-antibodies (ELISA)+ 1.371 Ratio <0.8=neg;>1.1=pos

 

[Nielk]

I just saw this thread and find it very interesting. I have elevated levels too. I'm not sure exactly how high. I will have to look up my records.

When my CFS specialist would see this, all he would do is ask me if I had lung problems and I would tell him no, so he would ignore it.

My B12 levels have been all over, ranging from low to too high.

I just started the Methylation protocol. I hope this will help. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.