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Chelation before methylation protocol?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by bluezone, Oct 13, 2010.

  1. suzanne

    suzanne Senior Member

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    Hi Danny,

    I am interested in your experience with methylation, as like you, I am having a hard time tolerating methyl b12 and methyl folate. i go alright for a week or two and then i have incredible problems with ithing, nausea and headaches- just becomes intolerable and my doses are not that high.

    I know i react strongly to chlation of mercury as i have tried almost all the supplements that are meant to help, and have found tolerating any mercury chelation to be diffficult to sustain- it just makes all my pre existing symtpoms a lot worse. i am toying with the idea of trying chelation again too- andy cutler style.

    Have you tried the cutler protocl- and if so, what dose of dmsa could you tolerate. I did a day and a half about 8 months ago- i took divided doses of 3 mg and had to give up. I know it sounds pathetic but i was a couch ridden mess with all my symtpoms. I am thinking about trying again but at a lower dose of .75mg. I cannot understand why i react so badly at these doses , which as I understand it are baby doses. Maybe after doing methylation for 6 months i may find it less diffficult, but I am cautious, for good reason. Trouble is, some of us may not heal until the mercury is addressed, i am strating to come around to that idea, as 6 months on fredds protocol and I dont seem to be making more progress- some improvement in energy but otherwise lots of downside symptoms.

    I have stopped all my methylation supps at the moment and day 2 still feel bad with aches and pains, headaches nausea and itchy skin. I am hoping to find out my base off the supps and then maybe add them back but at a lower dose.

    Then...may need to bite the bullet and try mercury chelation again.

    i would be interested to know your experiences with meercury chelation so far? I tried ala once as a sustained release 300mg tablet and had extree headaches, so stopped.
     
  2. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Hi Suzanne,

    I used the ALA (alpha lipoic acid) at 12.5 mgs six times a day for three days, two nights. Not sure if I'm strong enough now to be getting up twice a night, but will keep considering it. I never tried the DMSA...... :)
     
  3. August59

    August59 Daughters High School Graduation

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    Why can't you take a good high quality time-released version of ALA?
     
  4. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Hi August,

    Cutler insists that one needs to take small doses frequently so that blood levels stay as steady as possible for a few days, so that mercury and other heavy metals don't get redistributed into the brain. Here's his reply to someone 10 years ago, asking about time-released DMSA and ALA:

    http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Autism-Mercury/message/33088

    Perhaps that has changed in ten years, but I don't think so.

    ??? :)
     
  5. xrunner

    xrunner Senior Member

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    I've been re-reading Cutler's book Amalgam Illness as I'm approaching time when all my fillings will be replaced and will start chelation.
    In the book I find a lot of helpful advice with regard to working around side effects and reactions to mercury detox.
    Anybody thinking of doing chelation should have a look at it. You may avoid unnecessary suffering.
    Also anybody struggling with reactions should think about Naet, it can really help overcoming roadblocks.
     
  6. Ian

    Ian Senior Member

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  7. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Toxins can be released during methylation so if you suspect you have metal toxicity or other toxins you should be using binders during your methylation treatment whether or not you're also doing chelation. You should also start at very low doses when following a methylation protocol if you suspect a high toxic burden. This can also apply to people who have Lyme or other illnesses that cause the body to be overrun by toxins. Rich has spoken many times about methylation and detoxification. If there's anyone following this thread who's interested I can dig up some of the quotes.
     
  8. renski

    renski Senior Member

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  9. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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    Though it sounds very authoritative, there is a lot of misleading info in it and a lot of missing pieces.

    No mention of B6, B2, magnesium, TMG, and glutamine which also have roles to play.

    I chelated mercury over 4 years under an expert doctor's supervision. He had me on DMSA and a full methylation protocol the entire time, ramping up the doses to speed up the process, although there is a limit to how fast one can go.
     
  10. renski

    renski Senior Member

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    Curious what your thoughts are on glutamine? I know of it for leaky gut but what else does it do? Doctors prescribe these things like it just does one thing but afaik glutamine also increases glutathione which could detox metals?
     
  11. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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    Glutamine, glycine, and cysteine are needed to form glutathione. Glutathione is indeed useful in helping to detoxify heavy metals and other toxins. It's also useful in reducing the oxidative and nitrosative stress in mitochondria which can damage mitochondrial membranes and impair production of ATP. Glutamine can also be useful in repairing the gut lining.

    However, too much glutamine is not good. It can promote the growth of cancer and be excitatory in the brain.
     
  12. renski

    renski Senior Member

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    So fixing methylation, detoxing should really be done before trying to work on mitochondria with CoQ10 etc? But then doesn't methylation bring CoQ10, carnitine back to normal?
     
  13. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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    It's wise to have an idea of how toxic you are and to have an individualized plan that fits your situation. Toxins are taken up by the mitochondria, and can clog up the nitochondrisl membrane and impair their function. (See the attached, where the black stuff is arsenic in mitochondria.) arsenic in mitochondria.png
    Merhylating nutrients, like folate and B12 can help to prevent peroxynitrite damage to mitochondrial membranes, as well as being used in detoxification.
    One needs a balance of nutrients to support the structure and function of mitochondria.
    Carnitine is an amino acid - methylation won't create it out of nothing. CoQ10 is essential to mitochondrial function. Both are sourced from animal protein. CoQ10 is highest in organ meats frim beef, pork and chicken, but comes from the meat and fatty fish, too.
     
  14. renski

    renski Senior Member

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    I see, I think I'm fairly toxic but don't know how much, definitely some of the tests show detox issues and there are defiencies in many B vitamins, my digestion is screwed. Starting methylation just makes things worse for me, I can handle b12/folate in a multivitamin or something like Metagenics Ultraclear but taking folate/b12 or any of the B's really provokes a strong reaction. So I don't know, I'm just trying general detox support now with Ultraclear and the aminos etc.
     
  15. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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    Starting methylation if you are toxic will start releasing toxins, which may give you symptoms.

    Unfortunately, many people take this as a sign that methylation isn't something they should be doing, when in fact, methylation is essential to life. Methylation is needed for immune function, neurotransmitter production, proper copying of DNA, etc. Not having it work properly can worsen ME/CFS symptoms, and lead to neurological diseases and cancer.

    Getting your elimination function working well is an important step. If toxins are mobilized but have nowhere to go, they just then get reabsorbed into your bloodstream and redeposited in your tissues. Ensuring your gall bladder is working, improving your microbiome, and drinking lots of water are all good steps.

    As for folate and B12, you also need other cofactors, like magnesium, B6, B2, abd trimethylglycine to run the folate and methionine cycles, then glutamine, glycine, cysteine and B6 to make glutathione, and B1 and molybdenum for the transsulfuration pathway, or you will run into trouble.

    While you're working on this, don't underestimate the power of sweat. If you can tolerate sweat, through dry sauna, far infrared sauna, or exercise, it can help reduce your toxic load.
     
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  16. renski

    renski Senior Member

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    @Learner1 Thanks..

    I have a block from methionine to SAM in my methylation cycle and I've never been able to figure out why. I think low magnesium/potassium and low glutathione can slow down that enzyme, so maybe that's my problem, I need glutamine/cysteine/glycine. But then my urine amino acids show only low cysteine, my plasma amino acids which I had done a long time ago showed low glutamine. I'm taking Ultraclear and Ultrainflamx at the moment which have small amounts of Glycine, Cysteine and I'm supplementing about 3g of glutamine but trying to work up to more. These powders have small amounts of the B vitamins and some magnesium etc. I just haven't been able to handle these supplements on their own so have been using the powders.

    Should say that all of my aminos were low when I tested them through Great plains in 2016, but the Nutreval had them mostly within the ranges in 2017, so either these labs are reporting wrong data or my digestion improved.
     

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    Last edited: Jun 8, 2018
  17. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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    The issue that's the most concerning is your high 8-OHdG which relates to ongoing damage to your DNA. Focusing on lowering that will likely help everything else. Whatever doctor is knowledgeable to run these tests for you should be providing you guidance.

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0009898103004534

    You seem to be under a lot of oxidative stress. It's likely you have something toxic causing your antioxidants to be used up.

    Also, what is your diet like? Are you a vegetarian/vegan? You seem to be low in nutrients that come from animal proteins, so either you're not digesting them or your intake may be inadequate.

    And what is your blood sugar like? Are you on a high carbohydrate diet, which might be causing these results? Or, the other explanation is there are abnormalities in what your body is doing with nutrients.

    Steps you can take, ideally with your doctor's help are:
    1. Identify any potential toxins and reduce/remove them from your life. Look for exposure to mold, plastics, heavy metals, pesticides, petrochemicals...
    2. Improve your digestion. Check into clostridia with a DNA stool test. Look for SIBO and Candida and deal eiyh those. Rule out any food allergies/intolerances that could be causing inflammation. Ensure you're eating plenty of fiber and are adequately hydrated. And, increase organic animal proteins in your diet, while reducing simple carbohydrates (breads, cakes, cookies, beer...)
    3. Work on the transsulfuration pathway. Increase glycine, NAC, B1, molybdenum, and taurine. If you feel ill, kits a sign you are toxic, so work with your doctor to figure out what's going on and what to do.
    4. Work on your methionine cycle, by adding magnesium malate, B6, B2, and TMG. Watch B12 by measuring methylmalonic acid. It may drop as you add the other cofactors, so you can add MB12 as needed.
    5. Then, add 5-MTHF (folate) once the other steps are done
    If you experience mood or intestinal changes, get headaches, etc. these are signs that you either don't have everything balanced, so adjustments are needed, or you are mobilizing toxins - in this case, you can add curcumin which can help detoxify, bump up B1and molybdenum, or slow down your supplementation.

    This is challenging to do, but very important as you are already experiencing DNA damage, which can lead to many unpleasant health problems. And, again, this is best done under the care of a competent doctor.
     
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  18. renski

    renski Senior Member

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    Thanks @Learner1

    I'm eating meat everyday, the Great plains amino acids were low back then for some reason, Genova indicates they are fine so I just have to trust that. I have low stomach acid according to my hair analysis but don't feel good on betaine hcl, it does seem to help my digestion but I feel more depressed/unwell after taking it. I have malabsorption issues, looking at my fat soluble profile as well. I'm eating mostly complex carbs, but not more then 100-120g a day. I'm very underweight and can't gain weight, this all started after taking some strong antimicrobial herbs a few years ago, although I had health issues before that this completely put me into a deep illness.

    I've been trying some NAC on top of the Ultraclear the last few days and that is helping a little, I'll try some molybdenum soon but the last time I tried that I felt more unwell on it. My plasma zinc is low and I don't respond to zinc supplementation so I don't know how I'm supposed to get B6 levels up. My intercellular magnesium is low based on the Nutreval, so I guess that would be contributing? My lysine was low on the latest test as well, so I assume I need to be supplementing with that as well?

    I'm already living with some pretty unpleasant health problems, I have been for the past 3 years :/ I've been stuffed around by doctors and don't know who would actually look at my tests properly and help. I've tried getting a list of doctors from Genova in some areas of the US (I'm in Australia) but don't know which doctor to try because I've seen some people before who weren't very good.
     

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  19. renski

    renski Senior Member

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    Also - I tried B1, B2, B3, B6, B12 in activated forms, Zinc, Lithium and a multi mineral complex about 6 months ago and that didn't get me anywhere, that protocol for some reason caused my glutathione levels to drop (attaching my first Nutreval test which was before supplementing anything). I wasn't taking magnesium because of the side effects it would cause, things like Vitamin C etc were also hard to handle. But it's strange because I can handle these Metagenics formulas which have all of these nutrients, maybe because they are more complete / balanced?
     

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  20. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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    Have you had a DNA stool test to look for parasites or Candida and to see what's in your microbiome? Looks like your ability to digest things has gotten worse. A SIBO test eoukd be useful, too. Treating what is found is important.

    Where is the heavy metals page on your more current NutrEval? Does it show any mercury toxicity?

    Have you been tested for mycotoxins/mold?

    It seems like you have something toxic in you. Your MTBE and orotic acid are high. The toxicity itself, or inadvertently mobilizing toxins may give you symptoms. Figuring out what you're toxic with and how to detoxify it would likely be helpful in the long run.

    You've shared that you don't like taking a wide variety of supplements that your tests say you need. There are many reasons why you might have a reaction, from allergy to some ingredient in it, to a sensitive digestive system, to missing other cofactors to stsrting to mobilize something toxic but being unable to fully detoxify and get rid of it. How are your liver and gall bladder doing? Are they working properly?

    What I do know is that B6, B2, magnesium, zinc, etc. are extremely important for many tasks and the other nutrients you are short of are needed, too. It would be difficult to get well without addressing these and your other deficiencies. Working on a plan that helps you increase the nutrients you need without setting you off would be an important goal.

    Correcting your fats would be useful too. Raising arachadonic acid, increasing fatty fish consumption, and cutting back on omega 9 oils would help. If your gall bladder is an issue, digestive bitters may help.

    Finding a functional medicine doctor who is knowledgeable enough to help you would be useful. I'm not a doctor and am halfway across the world, so it's difficult for me to help you untangle this further given that you react to everything.

    Best wishes...
     

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