International ME/CFS and FM Awareness Day Is On May 12, 2018
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CFI Spinal Fluid study from Lipkin and Hornig is out.

Discussion in 'Latest ME/CFS Research' started by aimossy, Mar 31, 2015.

  1. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?

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    I love licorice, but don't have it now as it can raise blood pressure, and I already have hypertension. :(
     
  2. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Ditto.
     
  3. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?

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    Sorry if this has already been answered, but I have fallen behind on this thread for some reason (don't seem to have received notifications). Do you know if there are any studies showing IL-1beta modulating vasopressin in humans? All I can find are rat studies, and last time I looked I wasn't a rat!

    I am particularly interested in this, as I suffer from polyuria but have never had my vasopressin levels tested, despite suggesting it to my GP when I finally turned to him in desperation for a solution - a little over 3 years into my illness when it was becoming seriously problematic. He considered it an 'odd' thing to test for. :rolleyes: I have had major on/off battles to get desmopressin prescribed.
     
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  4. Sidereal

    Sidereal Senior Member

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    You'd like me to produce human studies where IL-1b is injected into the brain to see what happens to vasopressin (and CRH)? :p This sort of knowledge comes from animal research I'm afraid.
     
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  5. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?

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    I'm afraid results from non-humans correlate with results in humans on average about 50% of the time, so one might as well toss a dice. EDIT - I mean coin, not dice.

    No - of course I don't expect chemicals to be injected into the brains of living humans. I don't consider it acceptable for other sentient creatures either.

    But if we have measured levels of cytokines in human CSF, surely we could also measure levels of vasopressin and CRH and at least obtain correlations, if not definite causation.

    There are also indirect ways of assessing a person's ability to produce vasopressin, e.g. fluid deprivation tests, plus in vitro tests, although the latter are far from ideal.

    "...it underrates the ingenuity of researchers to suggest that medical progress would have been seriously impeded had animal experiments been illegal, although a different strategy would have been required. It is the skill of the scientist to find a way round the intellectual, technical and ethical limitations to investigation."

    Harold Hewitt, former animal researcher.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2015
  6. Gijs

    Gijs Senior Member

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    Does this cytokine/fluid study prove encephalitis?
     
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  7. halcyon

    halcyon Senior Member

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    I don't think so, no. It's interesting that CXCL10 is noted to be increased in viral meningitis and encephalitis, but it being elevated here isn't enough to prove that's why.
     
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  8. halcyon

    halcyon Senior Member

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    It is potentially interesting to note that beyond its function as a chemokine, CCL11 can also induce expression of SOCS (suppressor of cytokine signalling) genes, which as the name suggests, causes a downregulation in the expression of cytokines by various cells in various ways. In an animal model of MS where encephalomyelitis is induced, it was found that the animals with higher expression of CCL11 had a better outcome, likely due to reduced neuroinflammation. In that model is was found that neurons mainly produce the CCL11.

    It's tempting to wonder if something similar is happening in ME, where CCL11 is being released in an attempt to downregulate cytokine production in the CNS and protect the brain from excessive neuroinflammation due to persistent immune stimulation. The side effect of this being disturbed homeostasis due to overshooting the suppression and interfering with processes that rely on cytokines for normal functioning, as mentioned earlier in the thread. Although I guess if this were the case, you could expect MS patients to have the same symptoms as ME, but perhaps it matters where in the brain the suppression is occurring.
     
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  9. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?

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    A politician's favourite is "With the benefit of hindsight..."
     
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  10. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?

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    Are they elevated? If so, have you been assessed for possible Primary Biliary Cirrhosis? (There are threads on this.)
     
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  11. Sean

    Sean Senior Member

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    Elevated.

    I have had standard liver function tests a number of times, including an ultrasound, and nothing obvious turned up, apart from the raise alkaline phosphatase. The doc did mention fatty liver disease, but that was in the context of a general preventative approach given my age etc, just making sure about diet and alcohol consumption, etc, none of which was an issue in my case.

    Also, I have had ME/CFS for over 3 decades now, which as best I can tell is a very long time to survive PBC without treatment or any major signs like raised bilirubin.

    But I will mention it to the doc next time I am in there. See what he says.
     
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  12. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?

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    All my eosinophil results seem to have been normal. Basophils have been high twice and neutrophils high when I was hospitalised with severe hyponatraemia.
     
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  13. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?

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    I'm sure many of us would like to see your links. The easiest/quickest way is to just select the address of the link in your browser, right-click, select 'copy' and paste it here.
     
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  14. duncan

    duncan Senior Member

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    Well, I purchased the study, but I'm not sure I have the legal right to reproduce it. It's there for anyone to see for $29.95 in the July 1983 Annals of Internal Medicine. Also, Pamela Weintraub writes about the same study - and hints at its import - about a quarter of the way through "Cure Unknown."

    It really is a seminal piece of work, in that it both paved the way for claims that Lyme is easily cured in the vast majority of patients - although it isn't necessarily so. Also, the study for the first time that I found, suggested the pathogenesis for continued symptoms in at least some of the patients who participated, was possibly psychosomatic in nature. It provided, imo, a platform for a lot of misdirections at the expense of many sick people.

    But thank you, MeSci, for the instructions on cutting and pasting, and hopefully they will come in handy going forward.

    P.S. What's a browser? o_O
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2015
  15. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?

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    I wonder if it is discussed or critiqued online anywhere.

    A browser is the program that you use on the internet, e.g. Internet Explorer, Mozilla Firefox, Google Chrome, etc.

    At the top of the page there should be an address line, which you can either select and copy using your mouse or whatever you use on your device, or in my case (with Firefox) I just click on it and it highlights automatically, then I can do the right-click/copy bit.

    EDIT - is it this one? If so we can then do an internet search for articles or critiques about it using the name of the study and authors' names.

    In the UK you can buy journal papers very cheap from local libraries, and I can get them free due to being on Working Tax Credit.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2015
  16. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?

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    Just done a quick search and found these other links on Steere - he has continued publishing. There is this Wikipedia article, and this paper that found that a high proportion of subjects had been misdiagnosed with Lyme.

    This article looks interesting too.

    Maybe best discussed in a Lyme thread? There may already be discussion on Steere.
     
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  17. duncan

    duncan Senior Member

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    Thanks for looking, MeSci. And no, that is not the article, although the first one you found is interesting from a historical perspective (note the emphasis on Lyme arthritis - Steere is a rheumy). The second is kind of cool too - it is purported that Steere hired a public relations firm to improve his image, and this may have been part of that process.

    Steere has his signature on literally hundreds of studies, I suspect. In much of the Lyme patient community, he is held with the same brand of, um, regard as Wessely is within the ME/CFS community.

    So Firefox - which I use - is a browser. Who knew?

    ETA: I thought I had mentioned the name of the article in question. I know I did on another forum. My mistake. It's "Treatment of the Early Manifestations of Lyme Disease" in the July, 1983 Annals of Internal Medicine, pgs 22-26. Authors: Allen C. Steere M.D., Gordon J. Hutchison M.D., Daniel W. Rahn, M.D., Leonard H. Sigal, MD., Joseph E. Craft, M.D., Elise T. DeSanna B.A., Stephen E. Malawista, M.D.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2015
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  18. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?

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    Ah - this must be it.
     
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  19. duncan

    duncan Senior Member

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    No, but another very cool study. Look who wrote it. Willy Burgdorfer himself.

    I love reading the history. It's hard to disentangle oneself from all the clinging vines and thickets that characterize today's Lyme and ME/CFS worlds. If you can dig up the kernels of deviance, you can see the thorn bushes for what they are, and more nimbly discern the pricks.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2015
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  20. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?

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    Here it is - the abstract and options to sign in or purchase. I see it's another Steere one though. I see someone called Duncan discusses it here. ;)

    And here is the PubMed page for it, which lists related and citing articles. Always worth looking for citing articles, as they can provide updates, analyses, corrections, etc.
     
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