CBS and cofactors. Are CBS+ low in B6?

[triffid113]

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01531575#page-1

This study says severely autistic kids have elevated HVA unlike normal kids and that B6 normalizes this. I have elevated HVA and HIAI that indicate dopamine and serotonin abnormalities. I never considered if a B6 analogue would fix because I have never not taken B6...so how could I be deficient? Unfortunately some of us consume some nutrients faster than others so maybe...But diet often trumps genes and I have to say B6 is mainly from protein and I eat a low protein diet (lifelong) so maybe that's the real problem. idk. There are so many variables it's hard to ever really know anything.


http://www.thecrystaltarot.com/articles/nutrition-articles/autism-alternative


Taken together, the studies seem to establish that vitamin B6 can benefit as much as half of children and adults with autism, and that its efficacy and safety are improved when combined with magnesium. None of these studies reported any significant adverse effects, even though the vitamin B6 doses ranged as high as 1,000 mg per day. Rimland emphasized that thousands of autistic people have been taking large daily doses of vitamin B6 (as much as 1,000 mg) for decades without experiencing problems. One publication reported on seven cases of peripheral neuropathy from daily intakes of more than 2,000 mg vitamin B6. (37) These patients were not taking magnesium or other B vitamins, as usually recommended when taking large vitamin B6 doses; nor were they taking the active form–P5P–that has not been associated with toxicity. In a later study, doses of 30 mg/day of B6 as pyridoxine hydrochloride (equivalent to as much as 2,100 mg for a 70 kg adult) were administered with 10 mg/kg/day of magnesium lactate to 11 autistic children for eight weeks; behavior significantly improved and no adverse effects were evident. (38) The latest ARI parent ratings in 2002 (24) reported a B:W ratio for vitamin B6 used alone of 4.1:1, for magnesium alone 5.2:1, and for the combination of vitamin B6 plus magnesium, 11:1.
Cases of hereditary impairment of pyridoxine metabolism have been described, sometimes manifesting as seizure disorder and autism symptomatology. (39) Conversion of vitamin B6 to its active form P5P by the liver can be compromised in some autistic children. For these cases P5P supplementation may work more effectively, although hyperactivity is a possible adverse effect. (40) An intake threshold for achieving benefit may be approximately 200 mg vitamin B6 (as pyridoxine) and 100 mg magnesium per day for the 70 kg individual. (41) In any case, the cumulative results from the double-blind trials and numerous other studies and case history reports are consistent with impressive efficacy of the combination of vitamin B6 and magnesium for autism, superior to either nutrient alone. (38,42-44)

 

[Jarod]

My 2 cents on B6. I've stopped B6 completely.

I get a overstimulated feeling from any B6 at the moment.

I had to start taking my b vitamins seperately so I can avoid B6.

On another note;
I'm getting some good benefit from reading some of the links in the Liver issue thread. Found this article particularly interesting. Many of the methylation supplements can be understood in terms of how they affect phase 1 and phase 2 liver pathways. Makes alot of sense. Especially when I think in terms of my various reactions to substances like medications, caffine, and GSE.

 

[sregan]

That said, I have many genetic defects and I find I need DHEA 75mg plus 50mg P5P OR DHEA 50mg and 100mg P5P to avoid anxiety. P5P is needed to make Gaba, dopamine, and serotonin.

triffid, thank you especially for the wealth of info you have deposited in this thread (I want to talk the others also). I wanted to ask do you become anxious if you don't get your p5p? I'm trying to deal with some anxiety currently and trying to figure out why it's come back for me.

 

[triffid113]

I am not sure...it seems like I get anxiety sometimes, it seems like I get anemic sometimes. Nothing happens right away, it may take 3-5 days or even 10 days before I get symptoms for not taking P5P. But then I look back and it seems like the P5P is always in the list of supplements I did not take (so like one time it was 2 supplements - copper and P5P, deficiency of either could cause anemia. another time it seemed like an extra P5P took care of panic when I tried to scale down my DHEA. In the end, however, I find it easier not to scale down my DHEA as it also prevents glutamate toxicity.

I get anxiety big time if I do not take my DHEA. There is a ratio of DHEA:cortisol that governs how much stress you can tolerate. Since your DHEA peaks at 30 but your cortisol has no such peak, as you get older you find you can take less and lass stress. Which can manifest as a panic attack (especially if you are a coffee drinker as 2 cups raises cortisol 33%). So lots of studies have shown benefits against chronic disease by supplementing DHEA over age 50. Hormones affect gene expression (for the better) which is why many illnesses emerge after hormones decline sufficiently as to no longer aide gene expression.

I am not a good test study because I take so many supplements and cannot take them all at once w/o stomach upset so I sometimes do not take the full complement as I find it difficult to take them when I am out and about. So whatever I take before and then at breakfast is sometimes it for the day. if I foget to take them with a meal they really will upset my stomach so I just can't take them whenever I remember.

 

[Marnie]

Son has ADHD, learning disabilities, seizures and Aspergers.
Looks like maybe ALDH7A1 gene. That protein encodes antiquitin, an aldehyde dehydrogenase that functions within the cerebral lysine catabolism (breakdown). If that protein is messed up...
Glutamate (high) triggers seizures which can be stopped with PLP/P5P (give him sublingual)
Seizure began at puberty...increased need for taurine = low cholesterol - up testosterone
Backup route maybe for the body to interfere with serine metabolism (serine needed to make BHMT)...down goes serine...why interfere with serine?...to get "at" NH3 - ammonia.
Depakote raises ammonia ! (That blew me away). Protect the liver with l-carnitine when on Depakote.
The only way to lower ammonia - also toxic - in the body is this:
Glutamate + NH3 -> glycine. Thus giving ammonia would be a way to lower glutamate =
"hyper"
"Glutamate in pyridoxine-dependent epilepsy:neurotoxic glutamate concentration in the cerebrospinal fluid ant its normalization by pyridoxine."
"Partial pyridoxine Responsiveness in PNPO deficiency"
He had late onset PDS - puberty.
Look very closely at the six vitamin B6 vitamers and the enzymatic reactions leading to their interconversion. Look for NH3. Kinases transfer phosphates, phosphatase remove phosphates. Works both ways to make or use B6. E.coli uses the serine metabolism pathway to get "at" NH3..."borrows" ammonia.
Boy, this is complex!
BTW...do you know kids with autism have high glutamate levels too?
It all comes back to B6 which has MANY functions.