CBS/ACAT & Bile Salts?

[aaron_c]

Hi Violeta,

Thanks for the tip about choline. That has really helped, although I took maybe two scoops a day for two days and it cracked me out (I think it encouraged BHMT a little too much). I'm just starting on it again at the 1.2 g dose Rich recommends.

 

[Violeta]

Hi Violeta,

Thanks for the tip about choline. That has really helped, although I took maybe two scoops a day for two days and it cracked me out (I think it encouraged BHMT a little too much). I'm just starting on it again at the 1.2 g dose Rich recommends.

You're welcome. I think the ones I take are 500mg, and I usually one take one a day. What brand do you take that you can take it by the scoop? Maybe I'll up to two a day and see what happens.

PS: What's BHMT? I'm not too familiar with all the abbreviations.

 

[aaron_c]

Oh, I guess I am taking sunflower lecithin, not choline. But it has a lot of choline in it. And it's the soy lecithin I was taking before that I took by the scoop.

BHMT stands for Betaine Homocysteine Methyltransferase. But first lets back up a little.

Methionine and homocysteine exist in a cycle. Methionine is turned into SAMe, which eventually becomes homocysteine, which then becomes methionine again. There are two ways that homocysteine can turn into methionine. One is Methionine Synthase plus Methionine Synthase Reductase (the second recharges the first, but both have to function well for the pathway to work). The genes coding for them are MTR and MTRR respectively. This pathway's function is depressed by oxidative stress. Supplementing methyl-folate and (or?) methyl B12 has the potential to speed up this pathway. These enzymes are found throughout the body.

The second pathway is through BHMT. BHMT uses choline (which is first turned into trimethylglycine aka betaine) to turn homocysteine into methionine. BHMT is present mostly in the liver and kidney. In short, this is why supplementing choline can increase your SAMe levels.

There are some holes in my knowledge here, maybe someone else can fill them in? I am somewhat under the impression that Methionine Synthase (MTR) also produces methylcobalamin for other uses than just methylating homocysteine. Yasko at least seems to feel that the MTR/MTRR pathway is, in the long run, more desirable than the BHMT one, and perhaps this is because of the methylcobalamin it produces incidentally? Is this true?

And a related question: If I supplement methylcobalamin, will that allow methionine synthase to function, or does it have to use methylfolate? Has anyone seen a study addressing this?

Incidentally, I've started taking dimethylglycine (DMG) because it slows down BHMT, then adding methylfolate and methylb12. So far DMG seems to make me tired, and methylB12 makes my wired, so that's good. Like others on the forum, I am hoping that the DMG will allow me to supplement the choline without increasing BHMT activity.

 

[Violeta]

Thanks, calebtrask, and thanks for the explanation.

My understanding of all this is rather on the surface, but I do think that even though Yasko thinks the MTR/MTRR pathway is more desirable, it may not be in ones best interest to take the DMG to slow down BHMT. Especially if it makes you tired. Anything that turns homocyteine into methionine seems to be a good idea.

 

[dannybex]

Thanks, calebtrask, and thanks for the explanation.

My understanding of all this is rather on the surface, but I do think that even though Yasko thinks the MTR/MTRR pathway is more desirable, it may not be in ones best interest to take the DMG to slow down BHMT. Especially if it makes you tired. Anything that turns homocyteine into methionine seems to be a good idea.

"Tired" may not be a bad thing…especially if one is constantly wired, or wired too much from the other methylation supplements. I don't have the link handy, but I believe Rich counseled to switch to DMG if someone had been using TMG for several months.

 

[aaron_c]

To expand:

Here is Rich explaining his views on DMG. He says that some people use DMG to switch from BHMT to Methionine Synthase, and that he knows Yasko recommends for this reason--I believe once methylation is moving decently, and some SAMe has been generated. Like Danny said, maybe a couple of months? I think Rich says she uses testing.

Here is Heartfixer with a pretty decently in-depth explanation of the "methylation" cycle. Look at the COMT section in particular, as it has a more detailed version of this:

1. COMT (+/+) and VDR Taq (-/-)
   1. Highest dopamine levels
   2. Better tolerance to toxins and microbes
   3. Low need tolerance for dopamine precursors and methyl donors
   4. Greatest susceptibility to mood swings
2. COMT (+/-) and VDR (-/-) behaves like COMT (+/+)
3. COMT (+/-) and VDR (+/+) behaves like COMT (-/-)
4. COMT (-/-) and VDR Taq (+/+)
   1. Lowest dopamine levels
   2. Poor tolerance to toxins and microbes
   3. Needs and tolerates dopamine precursors and methyl donors
   4. Lowest susceptibility to mood swings

I have seen Freddd say that the overmethylation thing is basically unproven and bogus. Also, he seems to downplay the importance of genetics. Maybe his views have changed since posts I saw--I do not know. I mention him because he seems to me to be the main voice of those views on this forum. But Yasko, Ben Lynch, James Roberts, and Rich seem(ed) to believe that it happens. Actually, I think every expert on the genetics of methylation thinks it happens. Which is not to say that they all think that COMT and VDR Taq are the only pieces, or that we even know what all the pieces are.

As with so many of these things, I have read up on this because I have experienced an adverse reaction to methyl donors over a certain point.

On a slightly different note:

Since my last post, I have been experimenting with getting off of TMG--I was taking about a gram a day--and taking some DMG. There was a few day transition where I was still sensitive to methyl donors. For instance even with the DMG, I could only take about a tablespoon of lecithin each day or else I would feel too wired and have insomnia. After a few days, though, it calmed down, and now I don't take DMG and do take something like 25 mg of methylcobalamin plus 25 mg MTHF each day, and still feel like I could use just a little more methylation.