Review: 'Through the Shadowlands’ describes Julie Rehmeyer's ME/CFS Odyssey
I should note at the outset that this review is based on an audio version of the galleys and the epilogue from the finished work. Julie Rehmeyer sent me the final version as a PDF, but for some reason my text to voice software (Kurzweil) had issues with it. I understand that it is...
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CAUTION: Vitamin B12 Sublinguals — The Citric Acid Additive Can Erode Tooth Enamel

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Hip, Apr 22, 2011.

  1. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    I'm not sure if there are mouthwashes with methylfolate, but I would assume that holding m-folate in the mouth, letting it dissolve a little and rubbing it around the gums, might be just as beneficial.

    The old studies used folic acid:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6386897
     
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  2. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    Dissolving Metafolin tablets could work... they don't have any sugar and one can rub it around the gums...
    Supplement and mouthwash in one product :)
     
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  3. rippe

    rippe

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  4. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Dicalcium phosphate is the correct item. You can probably buy dicalcium phosphate powder cheaply on eBay (you can on the UK eBay). Here is a study showing dicalcium phosphate + fluoride helps tooth remineralization.

    Fluoride is an important factor in promoting tooth remineralization, because the tooth enamel made with fluoride is stronger than ordinary tooth enamel.

    When I accidentally eroded my tooth enamel due to placing citric acid-containing vitamin B12 on my gums, and all my teeth became very sensitive at the gum line, where enamel is thinnest anyway, I very quickly starting gargling with a strong fluoride mouthwash twice a day, in order to try to remineralize my teeth before any dental carries (holes in the tooth) appeared.

    I also used dicalcium phosphate. After 2 or 3 weeks doing this, the tooth sensitive disappeared, so I think tooth remineralization occurs quite quickly.



    Some people may have a psychological aversion to fluoride, because of the concern that it may affect the brain. But I found it only takes a few weeks of fluoride mouthwash gargling to fix the tooth sensitivity, so this is almost an infinitesimal exposure.

    Of course, it's possible that my tooth sensitivity may have fixed itself after a few weeks even without my dicalcium phosphate + fluoride protocol; but I just wanted to try my best to avoid getting dental carries at the gum line.
     
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  5. rippe

    rippe

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    Thank you so much for your hint Hip!

    I was using sodium phosphate to brush my teeth and never thougt about calcium phosphate until I've read your post. very interesting.
    Tomorrow I order calcium phosphate Ca5(OH)(PO4)3 and sodium carbonate NaHCO3 from a chemist shop and use it for teethbrush instead of sodium phosphate. I think the hydrogen group within the phosphate is necessary to create further bonds within the enamel. thats where fluoride is binding (if you decide to use it) or possibly magnesium or sodium, I don't know for sure yet…
    the whole idea seems to easy to be true, but I'll post if I see results…

    here someone states that fluoride inhibits the enzyme adenosine diphosphatase which delivers phosphate into the saliva to remineralize the enamel.
    https://www.quantumbalancing.com/news/saveteeth.htm

    now I finally know why bicarbonate is needed to remineralise with calcium and phosphate - because of the alkalinity.

    Thank you!
     
  6. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    That page provides no references to support this statement it makes, so I doubt it is true, unless you can find a reference. Fluoride generally speeds up the incorporation of calcium and phosphate into the tooth surface.


    The white mineral substance of your tooth enamel is actually called apatite. As well as the tooth enamel, your bones are also made of apatite.

    The apatite enamel coating of your teeth can be manufactured in three different ways, resulting in three forms of apatite: hydroxylapatite, fluorapatite and chlorapatite.

    Your saliva contains calcium, phosphate and hydroxyl ions, and these bond together to form hydroxylapatite (under alkaline conditions).

    So in the mouth, normally hydroxylapatite is manufactured from these minerals in the saliva, and so the apatite in your teeth enamel is mostly of the hydroxylapatite form. But if you increase fluoride levels (many regions of the world have fluoride naturally present in the water), then you start to get some fluorapatite forming as well (so that your tooth enamel apatite then becomes a mixture of mostly hydroxylapatite, but also some fluorapatite).

    Fluorapatite is stronger and more resistant to acid attack, so it strengthens the structure of tooth enamel. However, you don't want too much fluorapatite, because when tooth enamel contains too much fluorapatite, it can become a little brittle. So a little bit of fluoride strengthens the teeth, but too much makes the teeth brittle.

    The chemical formula for hydroxylapatite is: Ca₁₀(PO₄)₆(OH)₂

    I found the following a good explanation of the tooth remineralization process:


    Yes, teeth are better remineralized under alkaline conditions, and sodium bicarbonate can provide this alkalinity.

    There is a concept known as critical pH, and when pH levels in the mouth become too acid and go below this critical pH, then the tooth enamel starts to demineralize (ie, dissolve away). But when the pH is above the critical pH (more alkaline), then the then the tooth enamel starts to remineralize (ie, the enamel surface rebuilds and thickens itself from the minerals found in the saliva).

    The interesting thing is that the critical pH of hydroxyapatite is around 5.5, and that of fluorapatite is around 4.5. So fluorapatite can stand higher levels of oral acidity before it starts to demineralize. This explains why fluorapatite is more resistant to acid attack, and explains why fluoride strengthens the tooth enamel.

    More info: Dental Remineralization: Simplified
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2016
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  7. rippe

    rippe

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    brilliant explanation. thank you!
    started to use a miswak weeks ago. somebody told me there is some fluoride naturally in it. but could be marketing.
     
    Hip likes this.
  8. rippe

    rippe

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    Hi Hip,
    you used the dicalcium phosphate for rinsing right? or as an additive in toothpaste? But you didn't brushed with the dry powder itself right? Is the powder somehow microcrystalline without any hard bits or is it granulated so it might physically harm the teeth? I'm planing to brush my teeth with the dry powder because it functioned already very well with (tri-)sodium phosphate that way.
    and you mentioned that it is a 'grey' powder. do know why it is grey? or ist is just white?
    sorry for all the questions.
    Rippe
     
  9. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I just rubbed some powder on my teeth before bed, along with a little bit of bicarbonate, and let it stay in my mouth. I happened to have some dicalcium phosphate at home, so decided to use it in this way. Do I know why my dicalcium phosphate powder is gray? No, I don't.

    Whether it is effective, I really don't know. We know fluoride is effective, so twice-daily fluoride mouthwash was my main approach to repair my citric acid-damaged enamel.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2016
  10. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I just found my packet of dicalcium phosphate powder, and in fact the powder is more white that gray (I seemed to think it was gray from memory, but in fact it is more-or-less white — a very, very light gray that is almost white).
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2016
  11. garyfritz

    garyfritz Senior Member

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    I see that people are asking about various sublinguals and looking for one without acids. That's why I use the Country Life 5000mg sublinguals. They have no acids, no sugars, no folic acid, and the xylitol they use for a sweetener is actually beneficial to tooth enamel. The tablets are fairly soft and will dissolve much too quickly under your tongue, but I find that it works very well to break them into quarters and put one piece behind my lip.

    As for the suspicion that B12 cannot pass through oral mucosa: that's certainly not my experience. When I wake in the middle the night with maddening symptoms, I can put 1/4 CL behind my lip, and the next thing I know it's morning. I'm lying down so it doesn't dribble down my throat, and I make a conscious effort not to swallow. And I feel an improvement in just a minute or two. The oral mucosa is the only possible delivery mechanism.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2016
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  12. jengonwin

    jengonwin

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    I am running into this issue.

    Been putting sublingual under my upper gum, now my teeth are so loose i feel i will need dentures lol.

    Got another 60 days to go on these sublinguals. Then im switching to b12 oils. Hope my teeth don't fall out by then.

    I tried lower gum but it dissolved too fast.

    I just tried hips method of grinding up the powder and adding bicarb then pasting it in the gums. Was abit messy and it absorbed fast but im feeling the effects ( was 10mg adeno)

    Is there a way to wash the mouth after using the sublingual? Dentists say NOT to brush the teeth after having acid on the teeth
     
  13. garyfritz

    garyfritz Senior Member

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    If it was me, I would NOT continue using an acidic sublingual. See if you can find the Country Life 5000mcg.
     
  14. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    @jengonwin You might try rinsing your mouth with a 1/4 teaspoon baking soda in 8oz of water after the sublingual is absorbed. Also I don't think it's necessary to hold the sublingual in one's mouth for more than 5-10 minutes at the most.
     
  15. garyfritz

    garyfritz Senior Member

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    @dannybex that's not my understanding. I believe the longer you hold the sublingual in contact with your oral mucosa, the more is absorbed. If you suck it down in 5-10 minutes, most of the b12 trickles down your throat and is mostly wasted.

    That's why I break the CL 5000mcg sublinguals into quarters, then put a quarter between my lip & gum. It dissolves VERY slowly, 1/4 tablet at a time. You get much longer time for the b12 to absorb into your skin, and I believe that results in much more absorbed from the sublingual. I get more benefit from 1/4 on my gum than I used to get from a full sublingual under my tongue.
     
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  16. jengonwin

    jengonwin

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    I have CL sublingual and it only helps me when slowly absorbed.

    Im also using source naturals adeno which probably has citric acid.

    I am going to use the adeno once a week at a CNS dose of 30-40mg i think. And crush it up and add bicarb like hip.

    The CL i feel nothing if i use under the tongue. But if i put in upper lip and don't touch for an hour i get benefits.
     
  17. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Well, whatever works for you. I find it works fine without holding it for longer than 10 minutes, and don't use nearly as much. But we're all different as noted many times before. :)
     
    jengonwin likes this.

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