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Case for BioPsychoSocio Cause of CFS

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by Stretched, Feb 2, 2018.

  1. JES

    JES Senior Member

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    Well, the logic of flow above is also flawed. If GWI = PTSD, it doesn't follow from anywhere that PTSD = CFS/ME, because first you have to prove that GWI is fully equivalent with CFS. Besides, we already have international consensus criteria that classifies diseases based on evidence. In CFS a central criterium is post-exertional malaise (PEM). Just by looking at this one symptom, the absurdity of equating CFS with PTSD becomes clear, or at least I have yet to read that PTSD revolves around post-exterional malaise.
     
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  2. femtosecond99

    femtosecond99 Senior Member

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    PTSD is completely different from CFS and GWI, but there is certainly a large overlap between PTSD and fibromyalgia, and between PTSD and GWI.
     
  3. Sean

    Sean Senior Member

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    That is one hell of a leap of logic.
     
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  4. Stretched

    Stretched Senior Member

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    Here is some material to update your reading: (These are excerpts; bold and UL is mine)

    1. PTSD Aand CFS

    Journal of ISSN: 2373-6445

    JPCPY

    Psychology & Clinical Psychiatry

    Review Article

    Volume 7 Issue 2 - 2017

    Chronic Fatigue Syndrome/Post Traumatic Stress Disorder: Are They Related?

    George Lindenfeld1*, George Rozelle2 and Katherine Billiot3

    1Diplomate in Clinical Psychology, Medical Psychology Center in Asheville, USA

    2Diplomate in QEEG and Neurotherapy, USA

    3BCIA Certified in Biofeedback & Neurofeedback, USA

    Received: July 22, 2016 | Published: February 08, 2017

    *Corresponding author: George Lindenfeld, Diplomate in Clinical Psychology, Medical Psychology Center in Asheville, USA, Email:

    Citation: Lindenfeld G, Rozelle G, Billiot K (2017) Chronic Fatigue Syndrome/Post Traumatic Stress Disorder: Are They Related? J Psychol Clin Psychiatry 7(2): 00433. DOI: 10.15406/jpcpy.2017.07.00433

    A number of factors have been investigated as possible causes of CFS. The first focuses on disease because some people have developed CFS after having a viral infection [22]. Among those viruses considered as possible triggers are Epstein-Barr virus [23], human herpes virus 6 [24], and mouse leukemia viruses [25]. No conclusive link has been found and rather, this speculation in regards to viral infection and CFS has been debunked [26].

    Having Chronic Fatigue, ME, Fibromyalgia etc, commonly co-occurs with severe PTSD/Complex PTSD.

    2. June 4, 2015 by Healing From Complex Trauma & PTSD/CPTSD 8 Comments

    [​IMG]

    The above is from http://www.post-traumata.com/post-traumatic-stress-ptsd-tiredness-fatigue.html

    I have many the symptoms of Chronic Fatigue and I am aware it is all part of the bigger umbrella of having Complex PTSD... .


    3. Volume 157 Issue 2

    15 January 2003


    Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome-like Illness among Gulf War Veterans: A Population-based Survey of 30,000 Veterans

    Han K. Kang Benjamin H. Natelson Clare M. Mahan Kyung Y. Lee Frances M. Murphy

    American Journal of Epidemiology, Volume 157, Issue 2, 15 January 2003, Pages 141–148, https://doi.org/10.1093/aje/kwf187

    Published: 15 January 2003
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2018
  5. JES

    JES Senior Member

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    I only need to read this one sentence that you quoted to see that there is some massive cognitive dissonance going on. The authors first state that people have developed CFS after viral infection and give a source for that, and further give references for viruses considered as possible triggers. In the next sentence they say that no conclusive link has been found, and they are right that no bulletproof link to a specific virus has been found. Fair enough.

    But in the follow-up phrase they say that viral infection and CFS has been debunked. How does not having conclusive proof linking CFS to a specific virus debunk all reported evidence from patients that CFS commonly is triggered by an infection? What are we supposed to think about this? The only way I can understand it is that they mean that yes, CFS sometimes develops after an infection, but the infection plays no role in maintaining the disease.

    There might not be a specific virus that links to CFS, but some viral infection combined with genetic factors that triggers the disease. This has not been debunked, and I'm not even sure how it ever could be debunked, because these viruses are present in the healthy population as well, so you cannot just test CFS patients for virus X.
     
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  6. femtosecond99

    femtosecond99 Senior Member

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  7. Stretched

    Stretched Senior Member

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    @JES <<I only need to read this one sentence that you quoted to see that there is some massive cognitive dissonance going on....>>

    Most people would realize that this has nothing to do per your last complaint: “Well, the logic of flow above is also flawed. If GWI = PTSD, it doesn't follow from anywhere that PTSD = CFS/ME... .” Where the above Post with references does restate the connection as inferenced in preceding posts.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
  8. Stretched

    Stretched Senior Member

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    I read this and felt a little melancholy... . It reminded me of the lone young chimpanzee who was ostracized from the group. Intuitively, you know that had to affect his ‘being’, be it immune system dysfunction or biopsychosocially (with all those ramifications.):cry:
     
  9. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    :( Yeah, we have yet to create the global social and political systems to prevent it. We might not be able to do so. Even chimpanzees go to war. It might be a primate thing.
     
  10. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Actually it hasn't. This is an overstatement. Its looking very much like severe acute viral infection initiates major metabolic and immune changes. Those changes drive ME. The virus is usually long gone. So the viral infections do not cause ME, in this model, but they are the initiating events. Even mainstream virology is saying the same thing now, at least with respect to acute and severe pathogen infection (not just viruses). When mainstream virology and cutting edge ME research match then you need to pay attention. Current research is looking at very specific metabolic changes, and we might have answers even as early as mid year. That might be that this model is shot down though, we have to wait on the science.

    Its also not some people who get CFS after a viral infection. Most people who get CFS get it after a viral infection, and the vast majority if you include non viral infections. A minority get it from physical trauma or poisoning. Other causes seem very rare.

    There is old research (Dubbo?, others?) showing severity of initial infection is the strongest predictor of developing a post infection problem. There might however be more than one type.
     
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  11. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    If I were to guess where the ME-metabolic-immune thing is going, I would guess right now that during acute infections not only is the patient fighting a life threatening illness, they are typically not eating or eating very little. This might be a critical factor, resulting in energy deficits and a switch to protein catabolism. That might very well happen with soldiers as well if they are engaged in combat or standing long watches. This catabolism might be a critical part of the trigger. Again, we have to wait and see what the science shows.

    Now under these conditions a person will most likely say they feel stressed if asked. Yet is that feeling of stress the critical factor?

    I am very interested in what is happening to beta cortisol receptors under these conditions. It might be this is part of the adaptation, and leads to cortisol resistance. Or not.
     
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  12. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Let me make a point about how useless BPS theories are. I do agree that the concept has some clinical validity, as a mnemonic for things to be considered.

    Here is the issue. If its biological all the way, its BPS. If its a social problem all the way, its BPS. If its psychological all the way, its BPS. If its any combination, its BPS. You might as well say BPS = feeling sick or unwell, and forget the rest.
     
  13. Snow Leopard

    Snow Leopard Hibernating

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    Article: http://medcraveonline.com/JPCPY/JPCPY-07-00433.php

    A narrative review published in the predatory journal "MedCrave Open access Journal of Psychology & Clinical Psychiatry"?

    Have you looked at the reference for [26]?
    Wow, that reference is completely irrelevant.

    Now reference 26 is mentioned again in the summary with the following:

    Which seems more appropriate.

    That is not the only missing reference/referencing error in the manuscript! (You can check for yourself). There are other editing/quality issues too, along with long (excessive) stretches of patient testimony/discussion that is not formatted differently from the rest of the text. The overall quality of the article is well, read it for yourself...
    The article in general reads as a poorly written advertisement for "RESET therapy".

    I think it is clear that this manuscript was not properly peer reviewed (not reviewed at all) or a simple errors like these would have been detected.

    Aside:
    Funny stories involving that publisher:
    https://www.the-scientist.com/?arti...nion--Why-I-Published-in-a-Predatory-Journal/
    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/neuroskeptic/2017/07/22/predatory-journals-star-wars-sting/
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2018
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