Invest in ME Conference 12: First Class in Every Way
OverTheHills wraps up our series of articles on this year's 12th Invest in ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London with some reflections on her experience as a patient attending the conference for the first time.
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Can methylation support help heal out of a mitochondrial crash or is it too strenuous?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by sueami, Feb 12, 2015.

  1. sueami

    sueami Senior Member

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    Front Range Colorado
    I'm bed bound, after crashing myself twice by trying to increase my activity level way too much when I started feeling better in this crash, which has been going on since Christmas. I now have elevated HR when I am upright and am working to normalize my K levels, which are quite low.

    But I have noticed something that makes me think that I never fully got methylation running, that I was using the wrong form of carnitine. I started taking Alcar for mito support in the last month and I've had some strong brightening and even certain symptom improvements (returned libido and clearing complexion) even as I have been too exhausted to be upright for long.

    I am wondering if, once I get potassium levels up, I should start titrating up on Alcar. I currently take and feel helped by 1 mg mb12 shots and an adb/mb12 blend oil and to a less noticeable extent 800-1200 mcg of mfolate and lcf.

    Has anyone used methylation support to heal out of a clearly mitochondrial crash?

    Can methylation even do that, or are its effects for other systems?

    Sue
     
  2. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @sueami I can't answer your methylation question. But I've been again reviewing Martin Pall's website detailing his theory that a problem Nitricic Oxide Cycle is at the heart of a whole class of illnesses, which he classifies as the Tenth Paradigm of illness. ALCAR is one of the things he specifies to help reduce peroxynitrite. I've added it a couple months ago. Not always, and not as part of my methylation protocol. But I self-test for it, and am testing + and adding it when I have a certain group of symptoms.

    I spent a long time tracing these symptoms, initially understanding them as ammonia. When I went deeper into Pall's work, I stopped attempting to differentiate ammonia and peroxy. I now classify this symptom cluster as my crashy symptoms. And in addition to rest, I've been adding in Pall's recommendations to keep me looking over the crash abyss, but not toppling over into it. I'm convinced that this NO/ONOO- mechanism is core to my health. I've mended everything available to me, including my current Candida/microbial intensive purge. What's left seems to be NO/ONOO-.

    I'm pasting in my edited list of supplements Pall suggests to get to the heart of this syndrome. On his site he lists things they've found useful, then tables listing those things in protocols of 5 CFS experts. If you go to that page, just know that all the items in the particular protocols have already been included in his first list, so you don't need to go through all of them.

    I hope this is not TMI!!

    He's also come to believe sauna is a key factor. If you have that possibility, it seems fairly frequent sauna is needed. In part, all of these things raise the BH4 level, which appears, to me, to be at the very core of the cycle and theory. I don't think you need to know the biochemistry or mechanics to be able to work with this paradigm.

    Learning about this mechanism and approach has coincided with my body requesting very large amounts of carrots, raw. (not cooking, because trying to not feed the beasties). It turns out that carrots are both anti-microbial, and a potent antioxidant. I've added resveratrol, first as red wine form only, now with a combo Japanese knotweed/red wine. And stronger astaxanthine as antioxidant. Antioxidant is the operative goal here.

    He mentions hydroxyB12 and, in the vid, AdB12. The AdB12 corresponds to the CArmen Wheatley paper, The Gorilla in the Room that Fred quotes, re ATP. I don't have hydroxy, so have also used an occasional AdB12 when feeling the symptoms.

    He mentions in the vid that the Gamma form of Vit E is preferably, so I've switched from the E succinate as suggested by Yasko

    Also, in case you feel like watching, here's his vid explaining the whole thing. 2 hours, he speaks to slides w/ printed info. So you can stop/start it. He covers ME initially, then other diseases. Last 20" is supplements. March 2014. As I look through the list pasted here, my feeling is that he's added things into the list on the vid, but maybe not.

    I hope you're feeling much better soon Sue.:hug:

    Martin Pall vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-...yer_detailpage&x-yt-cl=84503534&v=6A7r1gemjto

     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2015
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  3. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    I've just remembered, in direct response to the question re methylation: the first item in Pall's list of supps on the vid is MTHF. So in addition to the antioxidants, which were my main interest because my methylation support is pretty solid, he names MTHF, AdB12, HydroxyB12, and ALCAR. I guess that means the answer to your actual question is Yes.
     
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  4. sueami

    sueami Senior Member

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    Front Range Colorado
    oh i love you @ahmo. ty for all this. could u name or link the astaxanthin and resveratrol u are trying?

    i am on day 1 of myhills d ribose protocol. 15 g a day over six doses. it works great u til the ribose wears off, theb im back to utter exhaustinon. will take a week or two before enoih mitis are back online for the energy to start holding. i want to add antioxes too speed that up.
     
  5. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Hi sue.:) I started with a grape-only resveratrol, then tried another w/ both Japanese knotweed + grape. My body seems to like the combo better. I read somewhere that it's absorbed best sublingually, my body says yes to this, that's what I now do. I'll link them both. Plus adding a couple other formulas that I was looking at. I think the Gaia combo ends up as reasonable a price as any of the others, but I'm a terrible mathematician. I've searched thorough Astax several times, started with the Healthy Origins at a lower dose, now use this triple strength.

    Sample size Astaxanthin: http://www.iherb.com/Healthy-Origin...althy origins astaxanthin&rc=971&sr=null&ic=3

    Triple strength (12 mg)
    http://www.iherb.com/Healthy-Origin...althy origins astaxanthin&rc=971&sr=null&ic=4



    This was my first Resveratrol. Red wine only. Must be the best value. I'm now alternating w/ the Gaia. I can never recall my research process once I make a choice. But I would have spent a couple hours....;):hug:

    http://www.iherb.com/Gaia-Herbs-Resveratrol-150-50-Vegetarian-Liquid-Phyto-Caps/18798


    http://www.iherb.com/Paradise-Herbs-Resveratrol-60-Veggie-Caps/4232


    This one includes pine bark. I think my body doesn't like pine bark so much, I'll have to test against some I have put away:
    http://www.iherb.com/Country-Life-G...sc=0&lc=en-US&w=knotweed&rc=110&sr=null&ic=23

    This one is Japanese knotweed only (polygonum):
    http://www.iherb.com/Cardiovascular...isc=0&lc=en-US&w=knotweed&rc=110&sr=null&ic=2
     
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  6. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @sueami OK, here's Pall's whole list, w/o my editing. You might find other things here helpful. The phrases following each is whether there is or is not clinical data to support it. Sorry about the formatting...
    And some info re Resveratrol. Kimsie was talking about sirtuins, which made me go looking further and came up w/ this.
    And a thread re knotweed:

     
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  7. sueami

    sueami Senior Member

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    this has been so helpful. ty soso much. i had to stop taking my dribose this am because it is derived from corn and i was having a food reax to it. waiting for the corn free version to arrive in the mail. called all over town trying to find it locally. in the meantime i will keep loadi g the antioxes to keep making forward progress.


    i have gotten my delectrolytes balanced and meditated my way throughand out of a huge panic that was waking me up multiple ti.es a night in full fear, so that was a huge relief.

    still completely bedbiubd but feel less miserable. just deep exhaustion. hopeful that the d ribose will let me heal mitos faster than i would at this lvl of functioning.
     
  8. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @sueami hoping you continue feeling better day by day.:hug::hug:
     
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  9. pogoman

    pogoman Senior Member

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    Along with MTHFR I have some unknown mito related myopathy and exercise intolerance that has been helped by various supplements.
    You might try regular L-carnitine and choline along with ALCAR.
    Those and optionally with caffeine are used by body builders and when researching I saw studies that say they cell energy problems.
    Also mito related are coq10 and riboflavin, they are used as treatments for some types of mitochondrial diseases.
    One other supplement is medium chain triglyceride oil. aka MCT oil.
    There are some diseases known as fatty acid oxidation disorders that MCT oil will help.
    But it can raise your lipids if you do not have FAO issues.
     
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