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Can M.E predispose a once healthy brain to bad hard to treat depression?

Discussion in 'Cognition' started by MAOAr297r, Oct 23, 2017.

  1. MAOAr297r

    MAOAr297r Senior Member

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    Hey guys here is a dumb video with my thoughts. I'd love to hear yours about this topic. Sorry the video is long. I just started taking an online class on how gut mircboes influence the brain though the Pasteur Institute too. I know from Dr. Hanson our mircobiome is messed up. I bet thats just another factor. I hope you're all doing well tonight.

     
  2. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    @MAOAr297r

    Hi there...

    1. re Fish Oil
    DHA has helped me a lot w cognitive energy / clarity (not depression, per se). It increases BDNFhis is the one that I use:
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000MXG1G2/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
    DHA:EPA 2:1
    Molecularly distilled, so it doesn't hurt my stomach... really pure, no fish burps
    helped my eyes immediately -- less pressure in my eyes & sinuses, I felt relaxed, less achey all over

    I take EPA / DHA 2:1 in the morning, which is more energizing
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0015L2LBE/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
    also molecularly distilled

    some research re DHA - BDNF, but there's much more out there:
    DHA dietary supplementation enhances the effects of exercise on synaptic plasticity and cognition
    "The DHA-enriched diet increased levels of pro-BDNF and mature BDNF"
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3208643/


    2. List of ways to increase BDNF; the ones that helped me were DHA & EGCG
    http://mentalhealthdaily.com/2015/0...dnf-levels-brain-derived-neurotrophic-factor/

    3. speaking of EGCG, I've found (after trying a million things) that antioxidants were amazingly helpful in keeping the dull headache and cognitive fog and constant sinus swelling at bay.... EGCG, Alpha Lipoic Acid and Vitamin C (from tapioca, not corn.. I use ecological formulas brand)

    4. one of the single best things I"ve used for inflammation and cognition is Wobenzym (one the only things for joint pain, which is a big problem for me)... read the reviews on amazon

    5. none of the above worked until I killed a lot of bugs in my gut...I think this is the root of the ME/CFS problem, but I won't go into that here since it's going off topic. If you PM me, we can chat.

    ps... btw - I return stuff to amazon all the time... I'll try it for a week and then send it back if it doesn't work... It's super easy and great if you're trying a bunch of stuff.

    good luck and hang in there..
     
    Sidny, ljimbo423 and MAOAr297r like this.
  3. anciendaze

    anciendaze Senior Member

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    Quick comment: a great deal of treatment-resistant depression is actually a physiological disease that escapes routine tests. See doctor Naviaux's research on depressed patients who have attempted suicide.
     
  4. IThinkImTurningJapanese

    IThinkImTurningJapanese Moderator

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    I believe the microbes in the ENT area are also responsible. We have a thread on probiotics for that region. I take them regularly and control itching in my ears.

    I found this while searching for that thread.

    Strepsils reduced my M.E. "depression", weird!

    Edit: I love the, half a brain comment.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2017
    MAOAr297r likes this.
  5. MAOAr297r

    MAOAr297r Senior Member

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    I'm on it! thanks for sharing that sounds fascinating :)
     
  6. Wonko

    Wonko Senior Member

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    The other side.
    No, not my brain anyway.

    I currently meet a commonly used diagnostic criteria for severe depression, I am not depressed, it's just a lot of the questions are about not doing things which I can't do, because I have ME.

    Literally as soon as my energy levels improve enough to allow my brain to run, even a little bit, better, I am attempting to figure out what, out of the hundreds of things I need to do, I should do, and how to achieve that. It's not a conscious choice, it just happens, I can't stop it. Of course until levels increase a little more my brain stalls out before any definite plan, let alone action, is achieved, but I know from experience, as soon as the resources are there I will be doing stuff, struggling hard to not over do it.

    I've had ME for 29 years now, I'm currently at the severe end of moderate, I do not suffer from depression and I see no reason why, if I was magically "cured" I would start to.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2017
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  7. Marky90

    Marky90 Science breeds knowledge, opinion breeds ignorance

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    I dont think so..Being depressed about the situation and having clinical depression is worlds apart
     
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  8. wastwater

    wastwater Senior Member

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    The side effects of increased cytokines would be a severe depression maybe
     
    MAOAr297r likes this.
  9. Mollymolly

    Mollymolly

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    Yes you right but if you don't have diagnosis of ME you are just seen as depressed person that has nothing to be depressed about...., if you have illness and you are depressed it is allowed do to circumstances...
     
  10. MAOAr297r

    MAOAr297r Senior Member

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    I get that very much. One docor was conviced I was depressed when I wasn't becuase my activity
     
  11. Marky90

    Marky90 Science breeds knowledge, opinion breeds ignorance

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    Yea but we don`t even know the disease mechanism behind depression, it`s unlikely that getting another disease will set in motion the exact ish process that drives depression(s). I assume it`s more complicated than that, and studies on ME co-morbidity has shown that depression is not more prevalent anyway. Its just the quality of life and level of functioning that is extremely low compared to other illnesses
     
  12. Marky90

    Marky90 Science breeds knowledge, opinion breeds ignorance

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    That`s true
     
  13. MAOAr297r

    MAOAr297r Senior Member

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    We know a ton of the mechanisms behind depression. Most certainly not all but we know a good deal. As a simple example altered singolipid metabolism constantly evokes MDD in rats because spingolipids modulate biogenic amines (ST,DA,NE). When they fix the spingolipid metabolism the rats resume normal behavior and stuff on blood test (like glucocorticoids I think) go back to normal neurogenesis in the hippocampus goes back to normal. In Robert Navaiaux the MOST messed up metabolite were spingolipids. That doesn't mean your automatically depressed at all, it just means that some COULD be more susceptible to as an organic psychopathology. Which studies I would love to see them, I'm ultra curious about this topic and it makes me excited to learn about it. I totally agree the quality of life and level of functioning are super low, it sucks. I'm sorry you've had to deal with that stuff.
     
    pattismith likes this.
  14. pattismith

    pattismith Senior Member

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  15. MAOAr297r

    MAOAr297r Senior Member

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    Sure! I've spent hours reading about them. Whatever you do I advise you actually don't take those supplements though, you'll see in the papers. It gets confusing and it almost looks like M.E can have a protective effect against MDD on the sphingolipid front but I'm quite sure it's counterintuitive. In a nut shell altered sphingolipid metabolism is found in MDD and once it's fixed mice they get better. In M.E sphingolipid metabolism is also altered and a lot.

    I accidentally took my adderall before bed and I just read 180 pages of a systems neuroscience book on depression. I learned how M.E can seriously predispose you. They talked all about how the immune system and cytokines are very important in MDD. They are working on next gen treatments and have found using molecular medicine to precisely block inflammatory chemicals like Cyclooxygenase-2 (or cox2 quickly reverses depression. It's nuts MDD has a massive component of immune disfunction believe it or not. They also said if you have auto antibodies (apparently 30-60% of us do) it can also make at a higher risk then healthy controls.

    Cytokines that are pro-inflammatory mess the brain up too when they get out of control (which they are in M.E). Like they make glutamate get way to high, glutamate is proven to be messed up in mood disorders and it can even become excitotoxic and kill cells and change gross structure of the brain. People with bad long term clinical depression actually have tons of gross structural changes in the brain, they think this is one mechanism that changes the structure along with glucocorticoids damage. It also creates disfunction up the blood brain barrier, lower BDNF, mess up nitric oxide and makes it too high which then messes up neurotransmitters, mess up the precursors to serotonin, can spin the HPA into a negative feedback loop and release too many glucocorticoids, then those bind to the hippocampus (memory filer part) and actually can make it shrivel and 10 other things.

    All these big things then cause tons of down stream molecular alternations in things like gene expression and neuroplasticity. I read a paper by Dr. Montoya all about the M.E cytokines and it's bad and screams this. This isn't even the tip of the iceberg but in a nutshell tonight I learned M.E defiantly puts us at risk for endogenous/organic/clinical/pathological/biological depression. Secondary/reactive is more up to us in a sense and is kind of a different story. Sorry for typing so much, I'm bored and this reinforces some stuff I learned lol. Here are some good papers I read, I hope you enjoy.
     

    Attached Files:

  16. pattismith

    pattismith Senior Member

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  17. MAOAr297r

    MAOAr297r Senior Member

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    Thank you for sharing that! I have no idea about high levels of glutamate in ME/CFS but I suspect it could be possible. The pieces are in place for it. Dr. Jarred Younger might have some work on it. He's great.
     
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  18. anciendaze

    anciendaze Senior Member

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    One cause of high glutamates I've seen is an autoantibody to GAD65. This is measured because it is associated with type 1 diabetes (T1D), though that may well be a result rather than a cause, but if you look at the biochemistry you will see that the enzyme being attacked by antibodies, glutamic acid decarboxylaze, is an essential step for converting glutamic acid to GABA. Glutamates are neurotransmitters mostly associated with the sympathetic nervous system, and GABA mostly with the parasympathetic. (A big over-simplification here.)

    This probably leads to excess activity of the sympathetic nervous system, which many report, and less activity of the parasympathetic system, which you need to relax and sleep. This can cause a big shift in autonomic response. Doctors who are only looking for T1D will often ignore abnormal levels not associated with diabetes even though the patient is showing evidence of exactly the shift I'm describing.

    BTW: I don't assume all ME/CFS patients have the same biochemistry. There are definitely subsets, but some do have GAD65 antibodies, even if they don't have T1D.
     
    MAOAr297r likes this.
  19. MAOAr297r

    MAOAr297r Senior Member

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    thank you for elucidating.
     
  20. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    any cox2 inhibitors that work for me screw up my stomach, PLUS they give me rebound pain.. For me, all roads lead to fixing my gut (years of n=1 experiments; rx and OTC, pharma and supplement...)
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2017

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