Calling all betaine hcl - pepsin experts

[mermaid]

I was interested in this thread as I am back taking HCL Betaine after a break from it. I took it consistently for around 4 years and then had a bit of a break for a year or so as my gut seemed to be producing enough acid and although I had spells of stomach pain I wasn't convinced it was down to lack of acid. Then since the beginning of this year I am back with the old stomach pain issues, happening more and more. I have been underdosed with thyroid meds recently and have heard that can reduce stomach acid, plus I have been taking occasional Omeprazole to cope with the pain (it works on the pain but I don't want to take it long term due to the bad side effects), so I need to top up again with acid at any rate.

I have various diagnoses, for my stomach problems (gallstone and small hiatus hernia, neither of which the Gastro though caused the pain I get), but the main one is Functional Dyspepsia. I don't get a lot of acid reflux, just the pain mainly. It can go on for days and days without relief.

I suspect that there is more than one thing going on causing the pain, and have wondered about mast cell issues with it. I have looked at some of the research into Functional Dyspepsia as it is regarded as a 'thing' to study, but they seem to be struggling to understand what is going on.

Just hoping that the Betaine HCL will settle things down for me again. At the moment I am taking 2 capsules with my main meal, and just one with the other 2 meals if they have protein in them. Incidentally I am in touch with someone who was told to keep taking them until they felt a warm feeling in their stomach and that never happened and she was taking a ridiculous dose of it (over 17 per day or something) and she had some very dodgy blood test results so beware! You can have too much of a good thing.

 

[Learner1]

@PatJ
I have had some benefit from TMG, DMG and SAM-E (best of all w the super intractable brain fog, but also pain) but they all poop out after awhile..probably because it's using up some cofactors and once the cofactors are gone it doesn't work...

...Also, I've always had low homocysteine, so that doesn't jive w the methylation theories..

For cofactors, make sure you have enough B6 (preferably in its P5P form), B2 and magnesium. You might need more than you think.

My homocysteine was running lower than expected (3-4) given my other issues (huge need for MB12) and my doctor was surprised that I had no methionine, which is not a good thing... Taking 1g l-methionine daily has solved the problem, and it's running around 7 now.

 

[ebethc]

For cofactors, make sure you have enough B6 (preferably in its P5P form), B2 and magnesium. You might need more than you think.

My homocysteine was running lower than expected (3-4) given my other issues (huge need for MB12) and my doctor was surprised that I had no methionine, which is not a good thing... Taking 1g l-methionine daily has solved the problem, and it's running around 7 now.

Thanks... agree w both the p5p and methionine.. I take this solaray zinc called biozinc that also has p5p and it's the best form for me... I'll order that next time

I think I may have trouble w sulphur metabolism, but not sure... molybdenum does nothing...I've gotten really sick from glutathione, which "on paper" should be helpful for me

 

[ebethc]

Once I get into the various pathways and interactions of methylation my brainfog rolls in and clouds understanding.

Keep in mind that there is often a lot of speculation and opinion in methylation discussions (and health in general) so much of the information we read is provisional based on evolving understanding, or even wrong.

Yes, emphasis on the word "evolving"! I dove into the methylation and genetic testing trend a couple of years ago, but hit a stalemate... IMO, the interaction of genes can't be overestimated, and most of the methylation "recipes" treat discrete snp's

Thanks for all your input

 

[ebethc]

Betaine converts homocysteine to methionine, leaving less homocysteine for the methionine synthase pathway which uses methylfolate and B12.

Right, but wouldn't adding more betaine increase BOTH stomach acid AND methionine ? Adding betaine = more for both pathways

 

[Learner1]

Thanks... agree w both the p5p and methionine.. I take this solaray zinc called biozinc that also has p5p and it's the best form for me... I'll order that next time

I think I may have trouble w sulphur metabolism, but not sure... molybdenum does nothing...I've gotten really sick from glutathione, which "on paper" should be helpful for me

The amount of B6 in the Solaray zinc isn't very much. B6 does a lot of things - detoxing, making hemoglobin, and helping cell membranes. I take 350mg, which is far more than the supposed "upper limit" as my body needs it. You may not need quite that much, but you may need more than what's in the zinc.

Merhylating and glutathione can make you feel sick if you've mobilized toxins and they can't get out of you. Things to look at:

1) sulfur metabolism. Along with molybdenum, you may need a good amount of B1 and taurine. Just the molybdenum won't work without them.

2) digestion - you need a lot of fiber and/or binders to bind the toxins and get them out of you. If they can't, they'll just get reabsorbed and make you sick.

3) curcumin in large doses can help. Its a broad spectrum phase 2 detoxer, and its helped me when I had too much stuff mobilized and overwhelming my ability to process it (under doctor supervision), and I felt better quickly.

A Genova Diagnostics NutrEval, along with your 23andme results can be quite helpful in figuring out what you need.

It's not about following recipes for SNPs, its looking at the entire pathways, along with what's actually going on (the NutrEval) that can help you map out a treatment plan. We're all unique individuals, with unique environmental influences.

Also, it sounds like you may benefit from a heavy metals test.

 

[ebethc]

@Learner1

Thanks for the info re b6 and sulfur metabolism.

I haven't had luck w curcumin ...it's one of many supplements that looks good for me "on paper" but actually did nothing...

Have you ever tried citrus pectin? It's also supposed to be a good binder... I have some cholestyramine (sp?) in my closet that I took a long time ago and reacted badly... I'm better now so maybe I should go back to it

Nutreval said I need glycine, so I take glycine before bed... helps me sleep, too

 

[Learner1]

Curcumin isn't very bioavailable, so a small dose of a so-so product won't do much. There are a couple of high potency products on the market, Meriva and one other. Fat and piperine from black pepper help, too.

I take 3g every day as part of my anti-cancer regime. I don't feel it. However, when I've had too many toxins mobilized, I've had an IV of 30-50g and its flushed the bad stuff out of my system - headache, nausea, gut pain, and hammered feeling departed quickly.

Different binders bind different things, so taking a combo or knowing what you've mobilized so you can compensate is best. Quicksilver Scientific makes a universal binder, too, IMD Intestinal Cleanse.

Pectin has helped me. Cholestyramine has some pros and cons:

https://selfhacked.com/2016/06/17/11-proven-uses-cholestyramine-csm-6-things-watch/

I have very low cholesterol and malabsorption so my doctor and I don't think cholestyramine would be good for me just now.

Glycine is great!!

 

[Alvin2]

I haven't tried it. Do you feel nauseous before the vomiting or have any other side effects?

I get nauseous when i eat, started when i was put on effexor, i was throwing up constantly and after having stopped it many years later i'm still living with this.

 

[Zara]

Hi

I had helicobacter p. I think for long time. But my hbp. did not give me any troubles such as ulcer, GERD, stomach ache etc..
After a meal I did feel gas in the lower part of GI. This started after having ME. I felt bloathed feeling in stomach area and later in the intestinal area.

After treatment last year with pantopac for 1 week i started noticing changes. This occured
3 months after pantopac.. my throath was dry, i would choke on food and my stomach hurt after a meal..like a just ate a stone.and food would come back in my esophagus. I could not eat longer..An additional test was done for helicobacter p. But was not present. So doctor gave me pantoprazol. I took this for 6 months..i noticed improvement and i could eat again. Now I hear that me patients have low gastric acid because less available ATP.

My question is can H. Pylori have saved me from low gastric acid due to me/cfs prior to treatment? Does having H. Pylori making your stomach make more acid? Does this mean in my case that by exterminating H.pylori my stomach returned to a lower level of acid due to me/cfs?

I stopped taking pantoprazol...having heavy pain and cant eat normal now and i am planning to start on betain hcl.

Please your reaction on this..