Calcium Paradox

[learning]

This might explain the lactic acid link related to CFS in so many of us.


"Magnesium and potassium are mainly intracellular ions, sodium and calcium are mainly extracellular ions. When cells are excited, stressed, or de-energized, they lose magnesium and potassium, and take up sodium and calcium. The mitochondria can bind a certain amount of calcium during stress, but accumulating calcium can reach a point at which it inactivates the mitochondria, forcing cells to increase their inefficient glycolytic energy production, producing an excess of lactic acid. Abnormal calcification begins in the mitochondria."

Taken from this article:
http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2011/09/19/calcium-paradox/

 

[learning]

Anyone know how to solve this? Eat less calcium?

 

[drob31]

Right now calcium seems to be center stage in a lot of threads. Many of them are looking at calcium deficiency in the mitochondria, however.

@Iritu1021

 

[Iritu1021]

High calcium is more likely to be an issue in other medical conditions, while in CFS there is more evidence to believe that the opposite is true.

 

[learning]

High calcium is more likely to be an issue in other medical conditions, while in CFS there is more evidence to believe that the opposite is true.

You seem to be correct. I read this quote:

"when less calcium is eaten, blood calcium may increase, along with calcium in many organs and tissues"

Taken from this article:
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/calcium.shtml

by Dr. Ray Peat

 

[pamojja]

You seem to be correct. I read this quote:

"when less calcium is eaten, blood calcium may increase, along with calcium in many organs and tissues"

Has anyone read this wall of text of an article and found the reverence for it? Because alone the words 'may increase' could mean so many different scenarios.

For example just came across this quote:

After several weeks of strenuous physical activity, serum magnesium can increase with no change in erythrocyte magnesium levels despite a reduction in mononuclear cell magnesium levels. The authors of a study concluded that the reduction in mononuclear cell magnesium content ‘reflects a reduction in exchangeable magnesium body stores, and the onset of a magnesium deficiency state’.56

So whenever reading only a part out of context it may well mean the opposite.

High calcium is more likely to be an issue in other medical conditions, while in CFS there is more evidence to believe that the opposite is true.

Seems Dr. Myhill seems of the opposite opinion:

http://drmyhill.co.uk/wiki/Magnesium_-_treating_a_deficiency

I have struggled for over twenty years to try to make sense of red cell magnesiums. It seems that they are almost invariably low in patients with chronic fatigue syndrome. Furthermore, so many patients with chronic fatigue syndrome do benefit from magnesium by injection. You could argue that I have been a bit naughty in the past by using a low intracellular magnesium as an excuse for trying magnesium injections! This is really to encourage GPs to use the injections because clinically they are so helpful. Often, paradoxically, when I repeat a red cell magnesium, it is only marginally better, but nonetheless the magnesium injections often afford marked improvement clinically.
I actually now believe that a low red cell magnesium is a symptom of mitochondrial failure. It is the job of mitochondria to produce ATP for cell metabolism and about 40% of all mitochondrial output goes into maintaining calcium/magnesium and sodium/potassium ion pumps. I suspect that when mitochondria fail, these pumps malfunction and therefore calcium leaks into cells and magnesium leaks out of cells. This, of course, compounds the underlying mitochondrial failure because calcium is toxic to mitochondria and magnesium necessary for normal mitochondrial function. This is just one of the many vicious cycles we see in patients with fatigue syndromes.

 

[Iritu1021]

Has anyone read this wall of text of an article and found the reverence for it? Because alone the words 'may increase' could mean so many different scenarios.

For example just came across this quote:



So whenever reading only a part out of context it may well mean the opposite.



Seems Dr. Myhill seems of the opposite opinion:

That's just what she "suspects", doesn't mean it's true. The most recent TRPM study found low intracellular calcium concentrations in CFS patients. But it could be that both statements are true - there maybe phases in the illness when calcium leaks and later on when calcium influx downregulates to protect the cell and the concentration becomes low. Or there may be different conditions lumped under CFS diagnosis.

 

[Muddy]

I read that Cellular stress causes poor digestion and body becomes overly acidic , body uses minerals to buffer acidity .

 

[learning]

I read that Cellular stress causes poor digestion and body becomes overly acidic , body uses minerals to buffer acidity .

THIS...

When the body is in motion, and muscles are using atp, the byproduct is lactic acid. Calcium is needed to buffer the acid inside cells. Too much calcium can cause the mitochondria to calcify. Damaged mitochondria do not function.

The only question is does a high or low calcium diet cause soft tissue calcification? I can find a lot of articles that say low calcium diet is the cause of this.

 

[pamojja]

The only question is does a high or low calcium diet cause soft tissue calcification? I can find a lot of articles that say low calcium diet is the cause of this.

Interestingly again, Dr. Levy after giving it some thought and writing a book about it found the opposite again: https://www.deathbycalcium.com/

Have it on my drive somewhere, when I find will post the references in his book.

 

[pamojja]

Can't find it anymore. Here a youtube instead:

By the way, Dr. Levy is very accessible, mailed him once and he immediately answered.

 

[learning]

Can't find it anymore. Here a youtube instead:

VIDEO

By the way, Dr. Levy is very accessible, mailed him once and he immediately answered.

Thanks for posting this. I agree that too much intracellular calcium is a problem. That is what 99% of the video is about. The one thing I'm not sure about is if eating dietary calcium increases intracellular calcium or if eating a diet with low/no calcium it worse. So far that video is the only source of an opinion that eating dietary calcium is bad. the problem with that is we have calcium in our bones and we pull calcium out to help alkalize high acid. So logic tells me that the real problem is high acid and the effect is too much intracellular calcium.

p.s. - let me know if you want me to post sources of articles about low calcium diets exasperating soft tissue calcification. ie: the calcium paradox. There are literally hundreds of them that come up in a google search.

 

[pamojja]

p.s. - let me know if you want me to post sources of articles about low calcium diets exasperating soft tissue calcification. ie: the calcium paradox. There are literally hundreds of them that come up in a google search.

Sure, especially if the come with references, so that one can verify findings. The problem with most studies is that they most often look only at one nutrient at a time. As if they are ever taken in a vacuum and not in combination with all essential nutrients.

However, for example in my case it was vitamin D which brought calcium up from below normal to the mean of normal within 2 years. And stayed there without increasing calcium intake. - Got about 1.1 g/d calcium from diet, 0.6 g from supplements (mainly from calcium panthenate and mineral water), balanced with 0.6 g/d of magnesium from diet, 1.6 g from supplements in average the last 10 years. Therefore about a 1 to 0,7 Mg to Ca ratio. 4 times tested blood pH has been above normal range alkaline, only the most recent came back perfectly neutral.

My experience tells me this whole calcium 'paradox' might be a highly individual affair with too many confounders (ie. other nutrients involved). Therefore a framework to understand such differences better seems to me the one of the late Dr. Nickolas Gonzalez (notes from an interview taken):

Dominant sympathetic types: Typ ‘A’ personalities, disciplined; mostly solid cancers; do good on much plant based foods: fruits, vegies, seeds, grains, nuts, plant based oils: hemp, flax; Vitamin B1, B2, B3, 8:1 ratio magnesium to calcium, High vitamin C & D; but not on much meat protein, No b12, no choline, no pantheonic acid, no zinc, no selenium, no fish oil. Yes to beta Carotene, chromium, folic acid, riboflavin, thiamin,& niacin

Parasympathetic types: are rather creative with unconventional ‘formal’ education; mostly blood-based cancers; do good on lots of meat and a ketogenic diet, saturated fats, fats from fish oils, Calcium 10-15 ratio to magnesium (High magnesium causes depression), Vitamin B12, B5, Choline; not as good on grains or seed. Need zinc & selenium, not good with other large Vitamin B doses.

Mixed or balanced types: suffer rather from allergies and fatigue.

Myself having been a very low fat vegan for 30 years and getting really sick for example, could reverse a 60% walking disability by turning to a mixed diet and lots of all nutrients, except calcium.

 

[learning]

which brought calcium up from below normal

how did you know that your calcium was low?

 

[pamojja]

how did you know that your calcium was low?

Calcium in serum had been consistently below normal range for the first 2 years. Which is quite unusual, since electrolytes in blood are highly regulated and only would show if already really deficient. Also only my first HTMA - in the second year of above - showed above normal. - Which according to some means in most cases depletion of calcium in the body.

balanced with 0.6 g/d of magnesium from diet, 1.6 g from supplements in average the last 10 years. Therefore about a 1 to 0,7 Mg to Ca ratio. 4 times tested blood pH has been above normal range alkaline, only the most recent came back perfectly neutral.

To specify my case further, the vitamin D which brought calcium up also pushed me into a very severe Mg-deficiency (very severe and pain-full muscle-cramps, verified by whole-blood magnesium tests; in serum it didn't even show). Therefore tried to fight it by increasing supplemental elemental Mg intake, from originally 0.7 to now 2.5 g orally today in the course of 10 years. However, oral Mg above certain thresholds, only alleviated the muscle-cramps. Only since having received Mg-sulfate IVs since November last year, and with the 6th IV in April this year they ceased completely.

Sodium I got about 2 g from diet and 1.5 g per day from supplements.
Potassium about 4.3 g from diet and 1.3 g/d from supplements, all averages for the last 10 years.

 

[learning]

Your body can take calcium from your bones as needed. So having low serum calcium for two years is strange. How much calcium do you ingest on a daily basis now? And how much vitamin D?

 

[pamojja]

How much calcium do you ingest on a daily basis now? And how much vitamin D?

Already answered above:

However, for example in my case it was vitamin D which brought calcium up from below normal to the mean of normal within 2 years. And stayed there without increasing calcium intake. - Got about 1.1 g/d calcium from diet, 0.6 g from supplements (mainly from calcium panthenate and mineral water),

And with vitamin D every possible detail in this post. Further down that thread even considering whole-body sun-exposure.

 

[learning]

Can you please describe the muscle cramps?
would you say a random muscle is clenching up and you can't release it which causes pain?
Have you ever had twitching all over your body?

 

[pamojja]

They could happen everywhere in the body, extremities, trunk, but most often and excruciatingly in my neck, so that I couldn't help but think the thyroid would be somehow involved. Most often it happened by stretching or bending - therefore movements - in unusual ways. For example pulling over a pullover, sitting with small space in a car, but the one particular in the neck from the posture adopted from lying with my head on a pillow. An involuntary spasm from postures causing extreme but temporary pain.

Have you ever had twitching all over your body?

Only years ago in long intensive meditation retreats I experienced localized intense twitching, but that was long before my health odyssey started and related to that particular meditation practice. What I did however experience long ago were infrequent retinal migraines (without headache, just a focal spot in vision turning to flickering for about 30 minutes, very like on TV with no program on; and feelings of numbness around and in the mouth - like in fallen asleep legs - afterwards), which I saw described as a symptom of Mg-deficiency.

So I think I probably had subclinical Mg-deficiency for a long time, where higher doses of vit D (also most likely deficient before in life) increased Mg-utilization to very high levels, and thereby pushing me very fast into a very severe deficiency. However, calcium balance was helped thereby.

 

[learning]

@pamojja - thank you for sharing your experiences. it's nice to hear that you're feeling better and finding out what works for you. There are a lot of similarities with our situations but also a lot of differences. I'm still not sure what to make of the whole calcium situation since calcium and phosphorus were high on my HTMA. I don't eat much calcium from diet since it usually causes muscle twitching. But I could be wrong about the cause of the twitching.