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Buddhism & CFS

starryeyes

Senior Member
Messages
1,558
Location
Bay Area, California
Thanks for explaining about the two posts grace.

Lisette, I really enjoyed reading your post and could very much relate to it. I'm in terrible pain all the time and I'm sorry to hear you are too. It certainly makes life challenging. I look forward to seeing more of your lovely postings.

tee
 

fresh_eyes

happy to be here
Messages
900
Location
mountains of north carolina
I think of it as being akin to taking a Native American tradition, making up all kinds of new "meanings" for it, and then discussing it as if we are having all kinds of insights and brilliant self-congratulatory ideas. It's a little bit violent, actually, in the sense that genocide doesn't merely mean killing the people, but it also means taking and destroying their culture, traditions, myths, and so on.

@ starcycle - I'm sorry if I offended you somehow. Just talking about my own experience, not trying to project anything onto other cultures (much less take and destroy them...:eek:).

A couple things: Surely by any standard coming from a Christian culture entitles a person to have thoughts on the Bible as well, doesn't it? And I don't think there's anything disrespectful about looking for the common spiritual truths that underlie various myths and religions. On the contrary.
 
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starcycle

Guest
@ starcycle - Sorry if I offended you somehow. Just talking about my own experience, not trying to project anything onto other cultures (much less take and destroy them...:eek:).

A couple things: Surely by any standard coming from a Christian culture entitles a person to have thoughts on the Bible as well, doesn't it? And I don't think there's anything disrespectful about looking for the common spiritual truths that underlie various myths and religions. On the contrary.

christianity appropriated the Torah for its own purposes, purposes that have nothing to do with the Torah or Judaism. So no, imo christians aren't really entitled to twist the Torah into whatever they want it to say, because like I mentioned before, it's not really theirs. In effect they stole it, but I usually use the softer word "appropriated." christianity is theologically incompatible with the Torah, so those "interpretations" are more often than not going to be faulty, anyway. The point is that it isn't theirs, so it's disrespectful in the highest degree to commandeer it as if it is.
 

fresh_eyes

happy to be here
Messages
900
Location
mountains of north carolina
Hi starcycle. Again, I'm sorry that I seem to have offended you, but the tone of your comments is making me uncomfortable. This long thread contains discussion about just about every religion/philosophy, mostly by people whose only qualification is being spiritually inclined and being a human being, which I think is plenty. By the standards you state, none of us should even be talking about Buddhism.
 

Dr. Yes

Shame on You
Messages
868
Starcycle, I definitely agree with you in respect to cultural co-option and the disrespect often exhibited by academics. I had my own problems in college with a couple of "Indian scholars" from Anglo-Christian backgrounds; one wanted to explain the fascination with cycles and the "many-armed gods" in Hinduism with the use of psychedelic substances (soma juice). The other wanted desperately to re-interpret Krishna myths in a Freudian sense!

The first guy was a former hippie, and I suspected was still using "soma" himself, so I didn't blame him much. ;) But the second guy was openly contemptuous and Eurocentric in his approach; he refused to accept Indian translations of epic poems, for instance, as source material (I wonder where he thought those Krishna myths came from!). When a group of South Asian students complained, he accused us of sacrificing academic rigor in the name of "political correctness".

However, I don't feel that Campbell disrespected Indian cultures in his studies of Hinduism and Buddhism. He travelled throughout India and Japan, met with many religious teachers in both traditions, and had a keen interest in the oral traditions of the cultures he studied and of the cultural contexts of their religions. So his comparative analyses, at least, seem to me appropriately grounded in a prior study of the traditions. That's for Hinduism and Buddhism; I don't know the extent of his exploration into early Hebrew cultural traditions and religion within their own contexts.

But in a way, you could say that both Christianity and Islam have been massively disrespectful of the original context of the "Old Testament". Even within each religion, especially as they have spread, that sort of thing happens. What could be more violent than the shift from the early schools of Christianity to Constantinian Christianity, with the creation of "Christian warriors"?

I find academics to be less harmful, actually... since people rarely read anything they write. Of course, 'stars' like Campbell are exceptions. Some are better than others, and of course you have to take anything any one of them says with a grain (or chunks) of salt. They do (like everyone) tend to cherry pick the attributes of the traditions they study that fit their personal biases. And yes, every western commentator on Indian culture misses or distorts something, often a lot of things, so I assume that happens with every other culture they study. It's the Orientalist traditions that do more damage (when they hit the mainstream).

Still, I think Campbell did OK with Hinduism and Buddhism, at least. He makes it clear that he's speaking as an outsider, and that when he compares religions or mythologies he is created his own artifice. But the basic concept of searching for commonalities in the human spiritual and psychological experience seems valid to me -- as long as it is not done callously, with a disregard for the history of cultural imperialism and genocide, as you rightly pointed out.

I like the name "starcycle" btw. You haven't been drinking soma juice, have you?
 

Dreambirdie

work in progress
Messages
5,569
Location
N. California
Once on a (Zen) meditation retreat I had a flash that "eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil" meant slipping out of the eternal-present-moment, just-this, only-don't-know mind, into the dualistic mind that says yes/no, right/wrong, I like this/I hate that, This is good/That is evil. Don't know if it's true (!) but it made quite an impression on me at the time.

Hey FE--

This makes sense to me too. I like your explanation of it. I think that any written material which is made public can be used for personal inquiry and personal interpretation. I don't agree that that would "violate" a culture.

Some of the most dangerous violence usually comes from the fanatic religious, who get overly attached to their holy books "as literal truth" and use that as justification for all kinds of sadistic, cruel and violent behavior--all in the name of their so called god. :eek: :eek::eek: The Christians, the Jews, the Moslems, the Hindus, and others have all been guilty of this.

Those who understand symbolic truth, and use it for personal growth, are a far less violent bunch.
 

MEKoan

Senior Member
Messages
2,630
The Abrahamic faiths (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) all take the Torah, or Old Testament, as their root text.

One family.

Family = squabbles.

:eek:

No dogma ~ just dog!

:p

ETA

Also...

Jesus is to Judaism as Buddha is to Hinduism.

Namaste!
 

Dr. Yes

Shame on You
Messages
868
Hey starcycle and all,

As usual, by the time I finish writing a dissertation the conversation has already moved forward! I have to say I agree with fresh eyes re: this conversation. Take Hinduism (a religion I was raised with), for example. It isn't just ONE religion, but a continuum, even a patchwork of ideas and philosophies. Over the millenia new schools of it have taken from cultures which have largely disappeared or been absorbed, some of their traditions co-opted, others dismissed, by Hindus from different cultures with different languages. Look also at the history of Buddhism, and at the occasional rancor that still persists between those who try to cleave to the early Indian Buddhist schools and those who follow schools that have melded with Taoism in China and Shinto in Japan. Tibetan and Chinese schools are almost polytheistic; did they have any right to deviate from Gautama Sakyamuni's cultural context? There is no such thing as a Dalai Lama in Hinayana Buddhism, nor of bodhisattvas with fearsome aspects, etc etc... But such migration and evolution of beliefs and traditions is at the heart of the human experience, isn't it?

I don't disagree that each subsequent religious tradition twists the previous one out of its original context, but it's not always an act of violence. Everytime someone gives me an idea, I'm pretty sure my mind puts it in its own context. The Torah itself must have been developed after centuries of co-options and appropriations. Jesus was of course a Jew himself, yet sought to put the Torah in a new context within the Hebrew tradition of its time.

What we can object to is the destruction of older traditions and re-writing of history in our own time, which happens constantly (look for example at how many people, including black Americans, now think white Americans invented rock!). But a humble, open-minded spiritual quest, when done in full knowledge of the hazards I mentioned, is nothing dishonorable.
 
D

Denn

Guest
things move so quickly...

Whoa, one cannot take a day off from this thread!! Not only does it move quickly, but this isn't exactly the kind of material that can just be buzzed through for an instant response. So, please bear with me as I harken back a day or two to thank a few people: i will try to tie everything together in the end.

To Koan: thanks for your crystalline suggestion regarding my confusion:

PHP:
Maybe, try this: Only don't know. 

Be ok with what is whatever it may be.

Only don't know with as much loving kindness as you can.

What do you think?
__________________

Absolutely, embracing confusion with loving kindness is a viable path that best acknowledges the present and allows for the best kind of receptivity. Thanks, Koan!

Cecelia wrote:
PHP:
It seems to me that creation myths tell just the beginning, the starting points, rather than portraying the whole story--all its changes and completions, however it will go!

Yes! I think that is exactly right (and now I try to become relevant again). What we are discovering is that the Christian creation myths were quite plural and did not have exact endings. Indeed, there was apparently a great deal of disagreement about much of the lore of early Christianity according to the material uncovered in the Dead Sea Scrolls. I am very dubious of any doctrine that has only one strict interpretation. The more we discover of early religious history, the more we learn that there was no unified doctrine in the beginning. These truisms of faith have been decided and codified by Hierophants over the ages.

I think we have arrived at a time when we need to deconstruct religion to uncover the truths hidden beneath the doctrine. These truths are determined by our sincere feelings, not by the determination of long dead greybeards...

Shanti,
Denn

PS. Thanks, too, to Teejkay for the wonderful summation of those posts on trees :)
 
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starcycle

Guest
Everyone always wants to defend trashing the Torah. :p

jesus is not to the Torah what the Buddha was to Hinduism. That's not an accurate analogy for what should be obvious reasons.

But let's say we made up a new, "Revised" New Testament, one that claimed all kinds of different things about JC and christianity -- I'm sure the christians wouldn't like that very much! It's perfectly fine for them to do it to Judaism, though.

So maybe it's a little understandable why people would be sensitive on that point. It definitely is a kind of violence, trying to justify or excuse it on the basis of what has happened in other traditions doesn't really change that, imo.
 

Dr. Yes

Shame on You
Messages
868
But let's say we made up a new, "Revised" New Testament, one that claimed all kinds of different things about JC and christianity -- I'm sure the christians wouldn't like that very much! It's perfectly fine for them to do it to Judaism, though.

(I think the Mormons already did that.);)
 

Dreambirdie

work in progress
Messages
5,569
Location
N. California
But let's say we made up a new, "Revised" New Testament, one that claimed all kinds of different things about JC and christianity -- I'm sure the christians wouldn't like that very much! It's perfectly fine for them to do it to Judaism, though.

I don't personally believe that Jesus existed as a real person. The story of Jesus sounds like a theft and revision of MUCH older mythologies--Attis/Osiris/Dionysus etc... remade by Church-ianity, in the interest of power and control.

And this why I prefer the OCEAN and the TREES... they have no interest in either.
 

MEKoan

Senior Member
Messages
2,630
Everyone always wants to defend trashing the Torah. :p

jesus is not to the Torah what the Buddha was to Hinduism. That's not an accurate analogy for what should be obvious reasons.

Hello Starcycle,

I was referring to the fact that each were teachers who's teachings created a new Belief which evolved from within, and out of, an existing ancient Belief.

Didn't mean to confuse. :)
 
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starcycle

Guest
I don't personally believe that Jesus existed as a real person. The story of Jesus sounds like a theft and revision of MUCH older mythologies--Attis/Osiris/Dionysus etc... remade by Church-ianity, in the interest of power and control.

And this why I prefer the OCEAN and the TREES... they have no interest in either.

I agree, although I think there is convincing evidence that JC probably actually existed.

As for trashing, the point I'm making is that there already is a rich tradition of interpretation of the Torah. It's called Judaism! :p It might be better to learn what the culture says about its own book before venturing off into new "interpretations," interpretations that usually tend to violate the meanings the people who wrote the book in the first place have decided they indicate.

Otherwise, it's kind of like saying you think Hamlet must be German because the name sounds to you like it has German origins. Then when Shakespeare himself comes along and tells you, no, you've got it wrong, Hamlet was actually Danish -- well, if you persist in wanting to say Hamlet was German anyway, you might start looking a little foolish. And when an entire culture starts insisting on that, at some point it begins crossing the line into hegemony and violence, imo.
 

Dreambirdie

work in progress
Messages
5,569
Location
N. California
Otherwise, it's kind of like saying you think Hamlet must be German because the name sounds to you like it has German origins. Then when Shakespeare himself comes along and tells you, no, you've got it wrong, Hamlet was actually Danish -- well, if you persist in wanting to say Hamlet was German anyway, you might start looking a little foolish. And when an entire culture starts insisting on that, at some point it begins crossing the line into hegemony and violence, imo.

In my dreams... Hamlet is Lithuanian! :)

In my experience, archetypes transcend the specifics of culture and locality. No violence intended.
 
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starcycle

Guest
In my dreams... Hamlet is Lithuanian! :)

In my experience, archetypes transcend the specifics of culture and locality. No violence intended.

When white people take it upon themselves to do sacred rituals like the sweat lodge, they don't intend any violence, either. But that doesn't mean no violence is done. Just ask any Native American what they think about white people doing the sweat lodge. They are not really too keen on it.

Of course the white person is still free to do a sweat lodge if they want. But perhaps we can see how presumptuous and... well, even kind of barbaric ... that appears from the perspective of the people for whom it's a sacred ritual intended for THEIR people.

Just because you are ABLE to take something, appropriate something, "interpret" something, doesn't always mean that you should. When you learn that, it's called respect and humility. Then you can start being spiritual. :)
 

Dreambirdie

work in progress
Messages
5,569
Location
N. California
After I was struck by lightning in 1979, a medicine man I know instructed me, and worked with me for several years, on rituals to aid myself in becoming more re-grounded to the earth. He was a very sweet and non-judgmental old shaman, who had no problem with white people participating in native rituals, provided that their heart was in the right place.

On the other hand, I lived with several (white) people back in the 1980's who were INVITED to participate in both sweat lodges and peyote rituals by some Native Americans they knew who led them. There were some very ultra sleezy Native Americans in that circle, who were VERY sexually inappropriate, using their power as leaders to manipulate and seduce the young white women. An ugly scene that I am very glad to have bypassed.

What makes something sacred is the intention behind it. When you learn that it's called wisdom.