Boron, Molybdenum, SUOX and Sulfites. (The Boron Fix for Sulfites)

[Paralee]

@Wayne , I have looked for the original (?) typed out version of (I guess) Rex Newnham's report on Boron, but haven't found it yet, seems like that's the issue for a lot of things I've seen before and can't find now.
I remember reading it and I really couldn't figure out if he was referring to being low or high calcemic or what, and it may have been formed in an interview with him.
Seems like everything turns out to be "pick your poison", doesn't it?

 

[kdwilkie]

I am having a hard time to tell apart sulfite from boron toxicity, which I just went through.
From the report linked above (page 7):

Add dried fruit to this list and we have both sulfites + boron.


I know I had Boron overload because I had parathyroid pain (and was gorging on high boron foods). I know I had B2 depletion due to migraines, vomiting, burning eyes.

I've been doing high dose boron as per the protocol of Dr. Jorge Flechas, for osteoporosis and osteoarthritis. He puts his patients on up to 150mg boron! I also take 50mg a day of R5P. I was fine on 30mg boron, started feeling off when I doubled to 60mg. On 90mg, felt like I was losing my mind. I was directed to the same article you found, and am concluding that the high doses of boron were depleting my B2, thus rendering my SOUX process crippled. I have had all the symptoms of sulfite toxicity. Taking a break from boron for a few days, and plan to try adding more B2 as I increase boron. The Heartfixer article has me somewhat confused, as I don't understand how he can recommend boron for SOUX, since boron binds to B2, which is a co-factor for sulfite oxidase. It seems counterintuitive, no?

 

[kdwilkie]

@Wayne , I have looked for the original (?) typed out version of (I guess) Rex Newnham's report on Boron, but haven't found it yet, seems like that's the issue for a lot of things I've seen before and can't find now.
I remember reading it and I really couldn't figure out if he was referring to being low or high calcemic or what, and it may have been formed in an interview with him.
Seems like everything turns out to be "pick your poison", doesn't it?

http://www.health-science-spirit.com/borax.htm

 

[Kathevans]

This is a good thread that provides some insight to the use of Boron. It is the last thing I added to my daily stack, and like so much else has felt both necessary and challenging.

I began by titrating very low doses of about 185mcg, or 1/16 of a 3mg capsule. I instantly felt twinges in my Dupyyrens contracture and knew it had something positive to offer to that, not only my swollen, arthritic trigger fingers; itinitially it also gave me deeper, more consolidated sleep, but over time this has become excruciating insomnia. @aaron_c ’s initial post offers perhaps some insight to the reasoning for this. I will lower my 225mcg daily intake of molybdenum and see if that makes a difference.

The troublesome issue for me is that I seem to have entered a refeeding situation with Boron. Not enough and I have heart irregularities, hand and foot pain and increasing ibs, and agitation. It certainly is causing some detox as well. I’ve had what is probably a bacterial infection/overgrowth in my gut and mouth since my health deteriorated over twenty years ago, and the boron has caused a lot of burping and more irritation of my tongue which I take as a challenge to the overgrowth.

I’ll begin by lowering the molybdenum. I don't have any Genetic SUOX issues, and my recent NutrEval shows a higher bacterial toxicity and relatively low fungal/yeast issues...though I have read that boron is good for both.

Any other thoughts or boron experiences are welcome.

 

[Wayne]

This is a good thread that provides some insight to the use of Boron. It is the last thing I added to my daily stack, and like so much else has felt both necessary and challenging. ...... Any other thoughts or boron experiences are welcome.

Hi @Kathevans,

You may want to check out THIS POST, which gives a cautionary note on how boron can actually deplete Riboflavin (Vit. B2). This "could" explain some of the challenges you've been experiencing. -- Best!​

 

[Kathevans]

@Wayne Yes, I'm familiar with this possible depletion of B2, and given my snps, I've wondered just how much boron can deplete B2. I've had a recent exchange with Greg Russell-jones of the B-12 Oils company and had hoped he would comment on this, given he recommends the Two Per Day Multi put out by Life Extension. It has 3 mg of boron in it and I told him I was experimenting with the boron prior to looking into a one-pill-does-it-all type thing. But he had nothing to say. Perhaps I'll nudge him a bit more.

That said, I've tried taking my 100mg of daily B2 away from the boron and wondered if that would do it; but then I've also wondered, given the fact the no matter how much selenium, iodine and molybdenum I take, my B2 markers are STILL LOW on my NutrEval test of August 14th whether I could I try increasing my B2 and counter any ill effect the boron is having on that?? Maybe I'll try a bit of that...

The whole thing is a bit overwhelming. And to top it off, I've just started chelating with ALA (another reason I haven't taken this two-per-day tablet which has 25mg of ALA in it--a no-no for mercury toxic folks at the single or double dose a day this supp has).

At any rate, thanks for that link--it has some great info. I do have some osteoporosis.

 

[Kathevans]

Just a note: as per @Wayne 's comment about boron depleting B2 and having checked the thread he mentions, I checked out the Life Extension Boron supplement, which has 3mg of Boron and 25mg of B2. So, if they know what they're doing, this 3mg dose seems relatively low and the B2 I take --100mg of riboflavin--ought to be enough!

 

[Learner1]

I need 250mg of B2 a day. Complex II of mitochondria uses it.

 

[Kathevans]

@Learner1 What is 'Complex II'?

 

[aaron_c]

@Kathevans

Unfortunately, while stopping molybdenum was enough to ward off the boron insomnia for a few weeks(?), in the long run the boron insomnia continued to build. Luckily, I found that copper worked to fix it, presumably by chelating some molybdenum. That said, I can only take so much copper before I become a completely unmotivated human, presumably because of increased activity of the copper-containing enzyme dopamine beta hydroxylase, which converts dopamine to norepinephrine. I take about 1/4 mg of copper every night. I've also had to back off of some other supplements like B1 (I now take a somewhat low dose) or B5 (I take barely any at all) in order to blunt the remaining boron insomnia.

As Wayne pointed out, boron does deplete B2. I take a lot of B2 and I seem to have found some sort of balance between the boron and the B2. At one point I tried increasing both of them, hoping I could increase the benefits from both of them, but it didn't work out that way.

Frankly, I'm kind of concerned about how long it'll take to get the extra molybdenum out of my system. I'm hoping that some new treatment will turn a corner for me and allow me to take a bit more copper without becoming a complete potato.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I can only take so much copper before I become a completely unmotivated human, presumably because of increased activity of the copper-containing enzyme dopamine beta hydroxylase, which converts dopamine to norepinephrine.

Also DAO enzyme, no one wants to be left with no histamine at all...

how long it'll take to get the extra molybdenum out of my system

Sulfur foods, MSM, NAC. I am lowering Moly with eggs.

Don't you get any pain from boron, copper and moly? I get various pains from just eating foods high in those minerals.

 

[aaron_c]

Does sulfur chelate molybdenum? I haven't heard this.

No, I don't get any pain from boron, copper, or molybdenum. But luckily for me, pain isn't generally one of my symptoms.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Does sulfur chelate molybdenum? I haven't heard this.

Moly is co-factor in Sulfite Oxidase. I know when I have enough Moly if I don't cry by chopping onions.

 

[aaron_c]

Moly is co-factor in Sulfite Oxidase.

I'm still not seeing the connection. It seems like you're saying that sulfates chelate molybdenum or otherwise increase molybdenum excretion, do I have this right?

 

[Learner1]

I'm still not seeing the connection. It seems like you're saying that sulfates chelate molybdenum or otherwise increase molybdenum excretion, do I have this right?

Molybdenum is a necessary cofactor for the transsulfuration pathway and helps you to get rid of sulfur. Details here:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2901774/

 

[aaron_c]

The point I was making and which @Gondwanaland was replying to was that I'm concerned I'm molybdenum toxic--I have too much molybdenum in my body. My concern wasn't that I have too many sulfites which need to be converted to sulfates.

 

[Gondwanaland]

The point I was making and which @Gondwanaland was replying to was that I'm concerned I'm molybdenum toxic--I have too much molybdenum in my body. My concern wasn't that I have too many sulfites which need to be converted to sulfates.

If you ingest more sulfur the molybdenum will be used up, no?

 

[aaron_c]

As I understand it, molybdenum (as Molybdenum cofactor aka MoCo) is used but not used up by SUOX. I do think I've read people say that depending on diet they needed more molybdenum in order to deal with sulfites, and I trust those reports. Andrew Hall Cutler in Hair Test Interpretation: Finding Hidden Toxicities (p 124) says that molybdenum absorption is reduced by increasing dietary sulfate levels, so perhaps this is part of the picture? If sulfates impair molybdenum absorption, that could explain why some people need to take more molybdenum when they eat sulfur-rich foods. I suspect it doesn't explain it entirely, but that's just a guess. Whatever the case may be, I no longer take these reports to mean that SUOX is using up molybdenum.

In any case, impaired molybdenum absorption from sulfates doesn't explain why my boron-molybdenum insomnia has persisted for years after stopping molybdenum. Why do I think this insomnia is the boron-molybdenum variety? Because by either reducing boron, or increasing copper (which chelates molybdenum), I can control the insomnia. To me, this implies that I'm not molybdenum deficient and am likely molybdenum toxic. And the only way I can think that I would have become molybdenum toxic is from taking a high dose of molybdenum for maybe two years.

This is all to say that it makes more sense to me that we have an SUOX or MoCo problem rather than a molybdenum problem. Perhaps we aren't producing enough MoCo, perhaps the issue is that we can't get enough MoCo to SUOX, or perhaps the issue is with getting SUOX to function in the first place. Since it seems to me that boron might be involved, that would suggest boron plays a role either in MoCo synthesis, molybdenum/MoCo transport, or SUOX function. In all of those scenarios I can imagine extra molybdenum helping to improve SUOX function that had been lagging, but if molybdenum deficiency wasn't actually the issue then we'd be slowly poisoning ourselves with molybdenum as well. I'm concerned this is what I've done to myself.

It's frustrating because I checked for molybdenum toxicity with hair mineral analyses and found nothing (Cutler claims it should be accurate). And I'm not sure how else to test for chronic molybdenum toxicity.

 

[Gondwanaland]

molybdenum absorption is reduced by increasing dietary sulfate levels, so perhaps this is part of the picture?

Interesting. I was just thinking that in fact high sulfite foods help me with Moly pain (e.g. coconut oil).

ETA: B6 is needed to use Moly (I suspect Hcy is involved in my moly pain).

 

[Kathevans]

@aaron_c This is very interesting, but new to me... I began to take molybdenum because Greg Russell-Jones said it was an important element in making B2 functional (along with selenium and iodine, or a well-functioning thyroid). It of course is also indicated in fungal-yeast treatments to convert acetaldehyde into ascetic acid for excretion by the body.

So I have raised my B2, as well as the boron and am sleeping better! But my dose, as I mentioned, is still fairly low—at 3-4mg/day of boron.

However @Gondwanaland cutting onions really makes my eyes water!

And @aaron_c How much molybdenum were you taking? I started taking copper prior to beginning molybdenum. My alternadoc said that the zinc:copper ratio had something to do with a-fib (though I haven’t checked this with my cardiologist, and I’m not sure she’d even know!), so I began to titration up on the BodyBio drops which I use to this day—about 2 mg of copper to my 30 or so go zinc. This isn’t much, as I understand it, though I rarely have a-fib now. In fact, given the doctor had me talk to a surgeon about an ablation, and this conversation is now completely off the table, I count it as one of my successes. And you know how much these count in a the world of struggle we tend to live in...!

@Athene* In case you’re interested!