Boo's Healing with B12 Journal

[boo85]

Tuesday 30th September

Last night I went to sleep but felt really really anxious while in the early stages of sleep, verging on a panic attack. I felt like my muscles were stiff and had a lot of fear that night in the moments that I did wake up, but generally I slept well. I'm wondering whether B12 tablets agree with me at all...

I felt a bit nauseous this morning but by mid morning I felt better. Not like I could run a marathon or anything, but better. I was in a better mood today.

Wednesday 1st October

Had a better sleep last night. Felt a bit sad when I woke up, but better than the hollow feeling I usually have after waking up.

Am researching my genetic mutations to see whether they could be the cause of lifelong, chronic depression.

 

[Adlyfrost]

Hi @boo85 : When you have time (it's one hour 35 mins) you might find this helpful in figuring out the relationship between your SNP's, methylation and depression.

 

[boo85]

Thank you @Adlyfrost

Thursday 2 October

Last night in bed I had the high pitched noise in my head and in the first couple of hours after falling asleep I felt really angry. I don't like that feeling.

For the next few days I'm going to cut down my dose on B12 and skip the (half) an iron tablet I was taking that only has 25mc of B12 and see how I go. So now I'm down to 10mcg of B12 found in my iron + B vitamins tablet. If I still feel "wired" after taking it, perhaps methylcobalamin and cyanocobalamin aren't for me.

I just found out yesterday that you can buy hydroxoB12 in the form of tablets...? This was surprising to me because I thought that you could only have it as an injection. I'm researching it now and am considering ordering some of them since I seem to tolerate B12 injections better.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Then magnesium - increase that until you get diarrhea, then back off a notch. Magnesium oxide doesn't absorb well, so switch to any other form - magnesium taurate, magnesium glycinate, etc. As an example, at one point I was taking 1800mg of magnesium per day which is an incredibly huge amount. Now I'm taking 825mg.

@boo85 You could try this step-by-step Caledonia wrote for you. It is great advice.

You are taking A LOT of magnesium antagonists like potassium and vitamin D and they increase your magnesium needs.

You could experiment with slow increases of magnesium, let's say 100mg/day to see if that makes you more comfortable.

Are you sure you need all that potassium right now that you are taking? Alternatively you could try lowering it slowly until you feel comfartable as well.

This is my personal experience, I don't say you should do the same:

At some point I had to stop all my supps, Bcomplex, vitamin D, E etc and took only magnesium and probiotics. Initially I took 200mg then increased to 400 and then to 600 and then to 800mg. At 800mg I got loose stools. Then I backed to 600mg and that is the only supplement I had for about 4-6 weeks. At the end of this period I got loose stools again. Then I backed to 400mg and restarted all the rest and am finally feeling comfortable. Apart from titrating the methylation up LOL, but that is another story.

You see, magnesium is involved in the job of almost all vitamins and minerals (if not all of them).

What was helding me back form taking magnesium previously was the fact that I had been trying to take the forms chelated with organic acids and for some reason (ammonia?) never tolerated any of them (glycinate, citrate, aspartate) and not even in the form of Epsom salts. When I finally tried magnesium oxide I saw I could take it!

So I told you this for you to see that any different form of a supplement you take will make difference, and that it is better to know what reaction you get from each one of them. Reading Caledonia's document "Start low and go slow" and actually followoing what's in there made all the difference for me.

izzy

 

[Critterina]

How can you tell from my 23andMe results whether I can use folate?

@boo85 ,

That's a good question, it's because of your MTRR A66G and MTHFR A1298C.

Can you use methylfolate: Yes, and you'll use more if you take mB12.

So, you don't have any real trouble making methylfolate, but it would still be good to consider supplementing it. It gets used two ways:
1. to recycle homocysteine to methionine (the methyl cycle), which you haven't been doing so much of without your mB12. That deficiency has been slowing down your methyl cycle. Now you are using mB12, you will be using up more methylfolate, so your reserves may go down.
2. to do the reaction that supports your neurotransmitters, the one that turns methylfolate into folinic acid and activates biopterin.

Some people, when their methylation cycle gets going, get what Freddd calls "paradoxical folate deficiency" or "donut hole folate deficiency". For you, this might happen because you're no longer b12 deficient. It shows up mostly as sores in the corners of your mouth (angular chelation - which can have lots of causes) and acne, face and scalp.) Freddd has a awful list of other symptoms, but these seem to be first and most frequent.

You really don't want to become deficient in folate, because you have the MTHFR A1298C +/-, which means that the reaction to support neurotransmitters is not as efficient as it could be, either. And the thing people here have found out, is that it doesn't really matter so much the total levels of folate and folinic acid, but that you get the reaction to go the right way. If a methylfolate deficiency causes an activated biopterin BH4 deficiency, that's when you increase the risk of anxiety, depression, IBS, CFS, Fibro, Parkinson's, migraines - that whole list associated with the A1298C.

So, I suggest you consider a methylfolate supplement, too.

 

[boo85]

@Gondwanaland Thank you so much for your response.

How much Vitamin D do you think I should be taking? The only reason why I started it up again was because my levels, when tested in July this year, were found to be so low that they were borderline non-readable at 23 nmol/L. The ideal level, for doctors, should be above 75.

I have taken a lot of Vitamin D in the past didn't feel like it really helped me energy levels or depression at all.

My doctor have me a script for Vitamin D powder 100000 IU (yes, that's 5 zeros). But seeing as I had a strong reaction to B12 when first starting it (at only around 500mcg per day) I was hesitant to take that much Vitamin D in one go. I think because my levels are so low that my doctor wants a few big doses of 100000 IU to jumpstart my vitamin D to get the levels up.

But I'm still a bit iffy about whether Vitamin D even helps me. Maybe in the grand scheme of things Vitamin D does help with all the other supplements, though.

Would taking magnesium/potassium/Vitamin D at different times help?

Or does the fact I'm taking a lot of potassium just drive up the need for magnesium end of story?

I'm not sure whether I need 4grams of potassium per day, but I guess I feel that if I am taking B12, even "just" 25 - 50mcg per day, that it needs potassium for healing.

I'm a bit scared to give up my supplements lol

@Critterina

Thanks for explaining my mutations to me. It's starting to make more sense now. You really explain things in a way that I can understand.

I feel like, because of the injections, and perhaps unknowingly taking 50mcg B12 per day over the past few months, that maybe I am now just beginning to have enough B12 in my body to feel better - more energy, less depression, better moods, generally. But I know if I stop injections, the depression will come back when it's depleted again and gets to a low enough level, just like what happened last year when I stopped injections and just about any form of B12 from October 2013 - June 2014.

So I think you're on the mark when you say that I'm doing better with the B12.

I haven't noticed any sores on the side of my mouth, but I will keep an eye out, so that's good to know. I did have a mouth ulcer last week though...

I'm looking into buying both methylfolate and hydroxocobalamin tablets from a trustworthy seller online.

Have you taken hydroxocobalamin as a tablet before, Critterina?

Thanks so much for explaining about MTHFR A1298C +/-.

Would that explain why I have had trouble with depression all my life? Because that gene isn't quite right?

 

[boo85]

Friday 3rd October/Saturday 4th October

I'm writing this on Saturday so I can't really remember how I felt yesterday (Friday), except a bit so-so.

Last night I had the ringing in my ears again and I felt really anxious within the first few hours. Like a fear response. But I managed to sleep it off. It's still very scary in the middle of the night though... Have no idea what caused that because I've been off most of my B12 for a few days now, except for 10mcg in one of my iron tablets.

I am wondering whether it's worth getting rid of cyanoB12 and methylB12 all together and getting all my supplementation from either my chicken liver patties in the freezer, or hydroxob12 tablets instead.

For the past few days I've been taking a spoonful of Vitamin C ascorbic acid powder. Between 2 - 4 grams of Vitamin C. And today I took 25mg of zinc since I found a bottle of it in the cupboard. This is in addition to my regular supplement regime (minus most of the B12, as stated above.)

Felt sad when I woke up again. But the hollow feeling was mostly gone from my chest. I just feel really reflective and sad for the past. I must add that I had my heart broken a few months ago so maybe that is it? Maybe it's just something I need to work through, those feelings. Maybe no matter if I get my B12 and methylation cycle in order, that can only help my feelings so much.

 

[Critterina]

@boo85 ,
Yes, MTHFR A1298C is associated with depression. If you've had problems all your life, you may do better if you don't neglect the methylfolate and B12
I have never taken hydroxy B12 in tablets. I think there was some in the holistic health SHMT spray formula.

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Gondwanaland
How much Vitamin D do you think I should be taking? The only reason why I started it up again was because my levels, when tested in July this year, were found to be so low that they were borderline non-readable at 23 nmol/L. The ideal level, for doctors, should be above 75.

One year ago my vit D levels were 12 ng/mL. I supplemented 3,000 iu per day for 3 months to bring it up to 43 ng/mL. It surely contributed to lower my already low magnesium levels and doubled my anti-thyroglobulin antibodies. I can't say I felt any benefit from it. I posted more details about it at the thread http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...mentation-causes-worsening-of-symptoms.32626/ Now I am taking only a maintenance dose of 500 iu per day.

I am not sure if anyone here can tell you how much you should take. You must read around, get informed about the implications and interactions with minerals and other vitamins. Learn to listen to your body, it will tell you. Read at least everything listed in caledonia's signature. It does take time to get educated on these matters, it's a long process.

My doctor have me a script for Vitamin D powder 100000 IU (yes, that's 5 zeros). But seeing as I had a strong reaction to B12 when first starting it (at only around 500mcg per day) I was hesitant to take that much Vitamin D in one go. I think because my levels are so low that my doctor wants a few big doses of 100000 IU to jumpstart my vitamin D to get the levels up.

That is indeed a huge dose. I think it is important to balance it with appropriate intake of electrolytes (calcium, potassium, sodium and especially magnesium), vit A and vit K2.

Would taking magnesium/potassium/Vitamin D at different times help?

I don't think it matters.

Or does the fact I'm taking a lot of potassium just drive up the need for magnesium end of story?

Both potassium and vitamin D will drive up your magnesium needs.

I'm not sure whether I need 4grams of potassium per day, but I guess I feel that if I am taking B12, even "just" 25 - 50mcg per day, that it needs potassium for healing.

I am taking 100mcg of B12 and 50mcg of folate daily right now and at this low dose I can get all the potassium I need from food. I don't know about you. For me the 1st step was magnesium, the 2nd will be potassium.

Reading this info on magnesium helped me a lot:
http://george-eby-research.com/html/depression-anxiety.html

izzy

 

[boo85]

@Critterina

But my results say this " MTHFR A1298C rs1801131 TT -/-"

Doesn't the two minuses at the end mean that my gene is NOT mutated?

Thanks izzy. @Gondwanaland

I read this page that you linked to on that Vitamin D thread - http://drcarolyndean.com/2013/03/too-much-vitamin-d/

I might reduce my Vitamin D to 1000 IU per day and later when I feel I don't need as much magnesium I might increase Vit D.

Looking at your doses, should the B12 to folate ratio be 1:2?

I read that man's story on the magnesium page. Thank you.

 

[boo85]

Sunday 5th October

Last night when going to sleep I had one 'jolt' but seemed to sleep fine the rest of the night. A solid sleep.

I felt really sad this morning. Thinking about someone I miss and sobbing, uncontrollable crying. But I feel better this afternoon. I just hate these mood swings. But compared to even two months ago, I feel I'm having more good days than bad and generally feel better and more 'myself'. It's just a progress, I think.

I've taken 2 grams of Vitamin C this morning and plan to take another 2 grams this evening. I had a leftover sachet of ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) that needs to be used up before it expires anyway...

I don't think I took any potassium yesterday at all...

I felt a bit tired when out walking in the neighbourhood last night.

Also one thing I've noticed is that I've had quite an appetite in the past few weeks. I eat lots of good fats (saturated fats) to keep me full. I don't eat wheat or sugar to make me feel hungry. Occasionally I'll have gluten-free grains, but not really more than once per week. Could the increase in appetite be attributed to healing/B12?

 

[Gondwanaland]

Looking at your doses, should the B12 to folate ratio be 1:2?[/USER]

I am still working on what makes me feel comfortable...

I read that man's story on the magnesium page.

It is taking me several weeks to read those loads of info. I have been jumping from one topic to another using the menu at the top left.

Soon I will shift my focus from magnesium to methylation and potassium...

izzy

 

[boo85]

Monday 6th October

I'm still only on 10mcg B12 (in an iron tablet) per day.

Last night when sleeping, I felt that fear and my muscles felt stiff. But I was able to sleep through it...

Still looking around for the best place to order hydroxocobalamin tablets and L-methylfolate online.

Feeling a bit happier today.

I'm booked in to see my dr for an appointment on Thursday to ask to have injections every 2 weeks. For the past few months I've been having B12 injections only once per month.

 

[boo85]

Tuesday 7th October

I seem to be getting these sharp pains in my head, like a warm feeling near my temples where the nerves are. The last time this happened was before I got on my injections again in the middle of this year. I'm guessing it's a symptom of low B12.

Hopefully my dr will give me an injection like I ask for this Thursday. I'll order hydroxocobalamin lozenges tomorrow. I'm wondering, since I seem to tolerate 1000mcg of liquid B12 injection of B12 every day or every second day. I'm guess that I would tolerate a big amount of B12 a lot better than even 50 - 100 mcg of cyano or methyl, which seems to make me really anxious. I'm still on the super low amount of 10mcg of B12 from my iron tablet.

Last night while trying to fall asleep, I started feeling a bit nauseous that I had to go get the sick bucket and put it next to the bed in case I threw up, which I sorta felt like doing. I just made myself think of clear water, and not all of the food I overate that day which was threatening to come back up.

Luckily I was able to get to sleep. In the middle of the night , my arms felt weak, so I'm wondering whether it's a slight symptom of low potassium again? I'm off the potassium for now because I was told that potassium uses up a lot of magnesium. It just reminded me a bit of when my arms would feel weak when I had low potassium attacks last year, due to B12. I felt sick in the morning, but by lunchtime I felt better.

It's hard to know the symptoms of overmethylation, reaction to supplements, low potassium, low B12 etc...

Oh, I ordered methylfolate yesterday. Hopefully it gets here soon. Still not sure on what measure my first dose should be...

 

[boo85]

Wednesday 8th October

Had a good, solid sleep last night. Though I will say that I did have a couple of jolts awake which didn't feel nice. When taking B12 regularly last year, I'd get twitching throughout the night in the early hours of falling asleep. Really scary.

Then again it could be a sign of low potassium?

I've found that I am occasionally bumping into things like tables and chair, misjudging distances. A sign of B12 deficiency...

In the morning in bed, as usual, felt a bit down. Not uber depressed but sad. As the day went on I felt better and generally feel like my depression is lifting and I'm becoming more like my usual self.

I think it's been a good idea to go off cyano and methyl B12, for the most part. Only on 10mcg per day for the past 5ish? days...

 

[boo85]

Thursday 9th October

I keep getting pains in my head that run along the nerves. I know it's due to low B12 because I gave up my cyano B12 tablets. I didn't even take 10mcg today. I ordered hydroxycobalamin lozenges from iherb today. I think I'll just wait until they arrive and start taking them and see if my low B12 symptoms go away.

I had my doctor's appointment and I told her that the B12 injections were really helping with my depression (which is true) and if I could have my 1000mcg hydroxocobalamin injection increased from once every 4 weeks to once every two weeks. I could tell she was a bit puzzled by my suggestion, but she was quite sympathetic to my depression.

Then she asked about Vitamin D (all doctors seem to be very well versed on the link between Vitamin D and depression, but not so much between B12 and depression.) And I said that while I was low in Vitamin D, I had been supplementing with a quite high dose recently. I also said that I had gotten my Vitamin D quite high a few years ago and didn't really feel like it impacted my depression at all. High or low I still kinda feel the same.

So she said that for the next 3 doses of B12 it could be every two weeks, and then monthly once those 3 are used up. So in the short term that's a good thing, but in the long term it doesn't really help. I don't know why doctors are so funny about treating depression or their patients with B12 seriously. It's like if you think B12 has any merit at all, aside from a monthly maintenance dose, then you're being a silly patient.

I'm hoping I'll react well to the hydroxyB12 lozenges in the same way that I seem to be doing better on hydroxy B12 injections. So hopefully that will cover for the injections that my doctor doesn't want me to have too frequently. I hope those lozenges arrive soon but iHerb are super quick with their delivery seeing as it's from America.

I took about 2 grams of potassium salts tonight before bed to counteract any low potassium symptoms that I might have. I think the last time I had hypokaelemic symptoms after a hydroxyB12 injection was back in July and none really since then, so that's good. I think I should be ok in that respect.

My mood has gotten better since going off the B12 that was in both my iron tablets. I think it causes me too much anxiety. Whether it helps or hinders my depression I don't know... Something about the tablets is overwhelming for me for some reason. I feel more balanced today.

 

[boo85]

Friday 10th October

In the hours after falling asleep I felt really fearful, like something bad was going to happen and I couldn't fall asleep. Not sure if it was low potassium or overmethylation though. I did take 2 grams of potassium salts before bed...

Feeling better today. Felt sad when I woke up today, but feeling better now.

Overall, my body doesn't feel 100% with energy and my depression isn't completely gone, but I'm hoping that with a grain-free diet, no sugar and vitamins and B12 and folate, that I can gradually heal and get better.

I have a feeling that me not absorbing ANY nutrients very well, and in turn becoming deficient, is because of celiac disease.

 

[boo85]

Saturday 11th/Sunday 12th October

I'm writing this a day late but on Friday night I did feel quite stiff during the first few hours of sleep. I wouldn't be surprised if I had some electric shocks come back too. It's hard to remember though because I was sleeping.

On Saturday I felt ok during the day but very tired by the end of the day. By Saturday evening I was very grumpy, probably from being busy all day. I felt really weepy and out of it and while watching TV before sleeping, I felt quite out of it and a bit wired.

My sleep last night... oh boy.

I felt like I was frozen and I was having an intense feeling of fear, like one long panic attack for hours on end. Not enough to want to put the light on, but just very afraid. I kept trying to sleep, but also kept waking up. I felt, and still feel like my back and arms were weak and pinpricked. I was having bad thoughts, very depressed. I could also feel my leg cramping up a bit. Not too much but it was there. So maybe it was low potassium?

My arms still feel weak this afternoon. I don't know if I can even go for a walk tonight. I feel a bit nauseous too and anxious. My mood is down today too. I just don't know what to do anymore... I don't know if I'll ever be truly happy or stable for more than one day, ever again. My moods are all over the place. I had to stop B12 tablets because it was causing anxiety. Now my mood has flattened. I just want to feel again.

Is this a reaction from my B12 injection (hydroxocobalamin) the other day?
Is this overmethylation?
Was 1000mcg too much B12 at much?
Or because I have stopped the tablets, is this a low B12 reaction?
Have I hit a wall because I'm not taking methylfolate yet?
Hypokalemia?

I didn't take potassium last night so maybe that explained the panic in the middle of the night. I stopped taking 4 grams of potassium per day because didn't want it leeching my magnesium. I might have to go back to taking it again. Today I've had 2 grams of potassium salts and will take another 2 grams after dinner.

I've got pain in my head again, which I guess, is a symptom of low B12...

By the way, my order got cancelled of methylfolate because it can't be shipped to my country. So I guess I'll just order it from iherb.

 

[boo85]

Monday 13th October

Feeling better today. Had a better sleep last night but still woke up a few times and felt like I had a stiff back and arms. My mood is better today as well.

Like I said in my last update, I took 2 doses of 2 grams of potassium salts yesterday, one at lunch and another after dinner. So I had 4 grams of potassium salts yesterday. Don't know if that was the reason why I slept better, but I did so I think I'll keep up with the potassium salts so that my body can continue to make new red blood cells from the hydroxocobalamin injections, if it needs to.

Hoping to get my vitamins from iHerb this week.

Also, I just remembered. I don't know if I said this in my story on the first page, but last year when I got sick and knew that it was related to low B12, I saw a naturopath. She did blood testing and I'm pretty sure that my blood cells were larger than usual (she did the pinprick thing where she could see my blood on the screen.) Anyone know what this means?

 

[boo85]

Wednesday 14th October

Feeling better today. I didn't feel well enough to go for a walk the past two nights but maybe tonight.

My mood is so-so but getting there. I feel less "sad" than in the past few weeks.

Last night in bed while drifting off to sleep I still had little electric shocks.