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BBC-article distinguishes clearly between having ME and being burnout.

TigerLilea

Senior Member
Messages
1,147
Location
Vancouver, British Columbia
I developed not just anxiety, but several mental and physical symptoms that resemble burnout / nervous breakdown. And these symptoms did not go away when I was forced to stop work, but went on for many years. In fact the anxiety has still not resolved (and was massively worsened when I later caught the virus that triggered my ME/CFS).

I am not sure if burnout / nervous breakdown is like you are portraying it: if the burnout clears up in a few weeks or months of leaving your stressful job, that does not sound like burnout to me. That's just being run down a bit.
Hip, I'm not understanding you at all. It makes perfect sense that if a person leaves the situation that is causing the burnout, that it would clear up when that stress is no longer a part of one's life. The fact that your symptoms went on for many years after being forced to stop work is suggestive that it was something else and not burnout.
 

PennyIA

Senior Member
Messages
728
Location
Iowa
Hip, I'm not understanding you at all. It makes perfect sense that if a person leaves the situation that is causing the burnout, that it would clear up when that stress is no longer a part of one's life. The fact that your symptoms went on for many years after being forced to stop work is suggestive that it was something else and not burnout.
Yes, that's why I was thinking we needed to clearly define that there really are two separate types of things... and using 'burnout' to handle both an 'illness' as well as 'stress related ONLY symptoms'... I think Hip got diagnosed with 'burnout syndrome' and is probably not wrong that it's highly likely he had some form of virus.

But I kind of want to jump on the bandwagon that if you have such virus-like-related symptoms, it ought not get lumped in with 'being burned out'...
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,824
Hip, I'm not understanding you at all. It makes perfect sense that if a person leaves the situation that is causing the burnout, that it would clear up when that stress is no longer a part of one's life.

In the 1980s, I remember reading stories in the newspapers about yuppie high flyers getting burnout (as well as of course ME/CFS, which as we know was then called "yuppie flu").

I seem to remember in these burnout / nervous breakdown stories, burnout was more like a permanent handicap, that meant the sufferer could no longer function in their original career, as they simply no longer possessed the cognitive and emotional ability to do so, and would of necessity have to downgrade their job to something very easy going.

In fact, I was watching a documentary on TV not so long ago about someone who was doing very well as a stockbroker in the City of London financial district, but was hit with burnout / nervous breakdown. His brain circuits were so fried and burnt out that he could no longer do anything that was fast paced and cognitively stressful like his original stockbroking job. He eventually left London, and with the help of his father, set up as an old fashioned blacksmith in a village in the countryside, making by hand wrought iron artifacts. He said he loved the relaxing sound of his hammer fashioning and shaping the red hot iron. He found the process very soothing for the nerves.

I can't seem to find on PubMed any info about how long burnout syndrome / nervous breakdowns last, and whether people can full recover from it; but I wonder if any do fully recover. By recover, I mean that they are now mentally and physically fit enough again to go back to their original high flying job. I think most will adapt, by finding an easy going job, and they may be quite content in that new job. But being content is not the same as recovery of your original mental abilities. I think burnout cases may just adapt to their much reduced mental capacity.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,824
@TigerLilea
I guess it is possible that there might be two distinct etiologies to burnout / nervous breakdown: the first being psychosocial, due to having an all-round unpleasant and stressful job and far too long working hours; and the second might be an infectious etiology: catching a neurological virus that affects brain functioning. (And there might also be burnout etiologies that combine these two factors.)

Perhaps the psychosocial etiology is relatively easy to recover from, given a few months break from the job; but the infectious etiology might be more permanent.
 
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TigerLilea

Senior Member
Messages
1,147
Location
Vancouver, British Columbia
@TigerLilea
I guess it is possible that there might be two distinct etiologies to burnout / nervous breakdown: the first being psychosocial, due to having an all-round unpleasant and stressful job and far too long working hours; and the second might be an infectious etiology: catching a neurological virus that affects brain functioning. (And there might also be burnout etiologies that combine the two.)

Perhaps the psychosocial etiology is relatively easy to recover from, given a few months break from the job; but the infectious etiology might be more permanent.
I definitely think that the two are very different conditions. I can understand though that if someone has gone through a very stressful job/career that they might want to change to a different job/career afterwards. It has nothing to do with never recovering but more a case of not wanting to go down that same road again. Or discovering that they weren't really in the right job/career for them in the first place.
 
Messages
3,263
I strongly disagree that what I have described is a psychosomatic theory, it's more like a physiological process that can take place. The immune system attacking proteins that have escaped from the gut causing inflammation and autoimmune illnesses could hardly be described as psychosomatic.
Okay, maybe not, @bertiedog. Depends on what you think causes the burnout. If your idea of burnout is physical exhaustion, then yes, I see your point. its not a psychosomatic account. But if your idea of burnout is that it also has a major psychological component (e.g, feeling stressed, overwhelmed), then what you have described is a mechanism whereby psychological experience (i.e. stress) can influence bodily health - ie. a psychosomatic account of illness.
 
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Snow Leopard

Hibernating
Messages
5,902
Location
South Australia
Towards a Cultural History of Exhaustion (2013 article)
Anna Katharina Schaffner


https://medicalhumanities.wordpress.com/2013/05/08/towards-a-cultural-history-of-exhaustion/

Yes, she quotes Edward Shorter along with all the other rubbish. (how did you guess?)

@velogubbed tried to steer her onto the right path (and was clearly ignored)...

Also:
http://www.disabilitystudiesnetwork...ina-schaffner-public-lecture-25th-april-2013/


Towards a Cultural History of Exhaustion
Dr Anna Katharina Schaffner (Comparative Literature, University of Kent)
Thursday 25 April, 5.00-7.00 pm 2013
A56 Elvet Riverside, Durham University

This paper explores how ‘exhaustion’ – understood both as a subjective physico-psychological experience and a broader phenomenon manifest in various modes of cultural pessimism – is theorized and represented in medical, psychological and literary discourses. Conceptions of individual exhaustion often overlap with other diagnostic categories that include weakness, nervousness, neurasthenia, melancholia, depression, ME, Chronic Fatigue Disorder and burn-out, amongst others. Many theorists of exhaustion not only claim that it is a specifically ‘modern’ phenomenon, situated somewhere between personal ailment and cultural condition, but also tend to define it as either a somatic or a psychological illness. The concept thus provides an opening into more general mind/body and psychology vs. biology debates, and allows for an exploration of the ways in which the dialectic between inside and outside, between the individual, society and the cultural and natural environment, has been construed in medical and literary works.

See also:
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10912-014-9299-z
 
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JaimeS

Senior Member
Messages
3,408
Location
Silicon Valley, CA
And the sudden appearance of cynical attitude is something I noticed in many people who caught my virus.

Whoaaaa. Really, @Hip ? That shocks me.

I would say that when I first contracted ME, I was emotionally over-sensitive. It was easier to get me upset. But that symptom seems to have gone away, and my practice in controlling it for the first four months of illness seems to have left me somewhat zen. Zenner? Slightly more zen than before acute onset!

-J
 

JaimeS

Senior Member
Messages
3,408
Location
Silicon Valley, CA
This is true as far as exposure but that makes me wonder why not all of those within the above occupations end up getting me/cfs.

Hyde said that the vast majority of his patients came from health care, education, social work, and foreign aid workers, as I recall. He, too, supposed that it was because these professions were high-stress while encountering a wide range of pathogens just looking for a home.

-J
 
Messages
3,263
, and my practice in controlling it for the first four months of illness seems to have left me somewhat zen. Zenner?
Me too, @JaimeS. I am so much "Zenner"! I am also , I think, more understanding of differences, difficulties and general suffering.

But @Hip, I'm definitely more cynical in some domains. Those to do with illness explanations, miracle treatments, medical practice and scientific research. Nothing else, though. Not about love, life, happiness, or people in general.
 

user9876

Senior Member
Messages
4,556
I would say that when I first contracted ME, I was emotionally over-sensitive. It was easier to get me upset.

-J

The question is how many times were you 'emotionally over-sensitive' and didn't contract ME?

Although I wonder if there could be something else which is ME is there in a mild form until a trigger makes it worse and in the mild form it could cause additional stress as normal activities become a bit of a struggle. I've think I've read about people in early stages of diseases who feel more stressed or depressed prior to being diagnosed (but I can't remember the details).
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,824
But @Hip, I'm definitely more cynical in some domains. Those to do with illness explanations, miracle treatments, medical practice and scientific research. Nothing else, though. Not about love, life, happiness, or people in general.

Yes, that is a characteristic I have also noticed as well in some ME/CFS patients, including myself: prior to developing ME/CFS, I would get very exited about scientific ideas or new innovations (I had a great love of science, as well as philosophical ideas, mathematical ideas and spiritual ideas); these would fire my imagination in terms of seeing the exciting possibilities and future potentials.

But nowadays with ME/CFS, I tend to view things more skeptically and cynically. With ME/CFS, I am more likely to cynically think, "Phhff, I bet that new scientific finding probably won't turn out to be correct, it sounds rather dubious".

Whereas before ME/CFS I was: "Wow, what an amazing and exciting new idea / discovery! I can see so much potential for that!"

So there is a change in attitude. This change is not all bad, though, in the sense that you do become a good critic of scientific ideas and concepts (and this critical stance most certainly works in our favor when it comes to bringing to light the deep flaws in the "all in the mind" model of ME/CFS). But the point is that your are now more of a skeptical critic, rather that an gushing acolyte, of ideas.



Whoaaaa. Really, @Hip ? That shocks me.

It was not just an increase cynicism that I observed with the friends and family who caught my virus. There were other personality / attitude changes as well, in addition to physical symptoms. I listed these on my website; I'll post them here for convenience:

What permanent symptoms does this virus precipitate in most people?

As mentioned, when people catch this virus, around 10% will experience severe mental and/or physical symptoms, and around 90% will experience relatively mild symptoms. This 90% who are only mildly affected by this virus will tend to manifest many of the following permanent symptoms:

• Increased fatigue is very common.
• Some mild anhedonia may hit people (anhedonia is the loss of interest in things once found enjoyable, due to the brain finding life’s activities less rewarding and pleasurable).
• Some loss of libido is quite common (a loss of interest in and desire for sex).
• Emotional flatness or numbness (a blunted or enfeebled emotional response) is quite common, making relationships and activities less heartfelt.
• Values that previously were important to a person may lose some of their significance and meaning.
• People may become less inclined to socialize, and more insular: they loose some of the enjoyment normally derived from friendship and the company of others, and instead may experience increased irritability with people. From the perspective of society as a whole, this a slightly disturbing characteristic of this virus: the fact that it seems to reduce the normal human desire for and enjoyment in socializing.

• Sound sensitivity may appear after a few years with this virus (this is where the brain finds it harder to cope with certain sounds and noises, such as screeching sounds, which seem to get “under the skin”). Such sensitivity to sounds is called hyperacusis.
• “Tip-of-the-tongue” phenomenon — the inability to retrieve a word or name from memory during conversation (this is known as anomia). These word recall problems are relatively mild, and tend to appear in most individuals with this virus after a few years.
• Short term memory also seem to be quite noticeably compromised in a few people, and there is increased forgetfulness.
• Mild to moderate depression may appear in some people.
• There may be a decreased ability to cope with stress.

• About two-thirds of people will have permanent constant congested nose/sinuses/post nasal drip with unusually thick mucus once they catch this virus, and around one-third will have a chronic sore throat. The throat usually slowly improves over many years, but the congested nose remains forever, it seems.
• Glaucoma appears in around 10% of people with this virus after around five years into the infection.
• Some partial hearing loss often appears in the elderly; in younger people too, hearing becomes noticeably less acute. Some tinnitus may appear.

• An unusual fine crêpe paper-like skin wrinkling will appear all over the body in more-or-less everyone with this virus who is over 30 years old or so; this symptom manifests more severely in the elderly.
• Weight gain appears after a few years with this virus — but generally only on the abdomen.
• A sudden onset of periodontitis often occurs within the first few months with this virus. More brown plaque may also deposit on the teeth.
• Many people get cold hands and feet (lack of blood to the peripheries) manifesting after a few years with this virus.
• A few people get recurrent stomach aches that come back every few weeks or months.
• Mild but permanent odorless flatulence and bloating is very common.

So these are the symptoms that are common in virtually everybody who catches this virus.

It is possible that this virus I caught is a particularly nasty strain of enterovirus, and that is why it had such ill effects in almost everyone who caught it.
 
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Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,824
I should add that I have a theory that enteroviruses like coxsackievirus B and echovirus (and perhaps other pathogens too) may have a general tendency to create this shift from acolyte to critic, from optimist to pessimist, and other changes in mental attitude, as a result of the neurological or immunological effects of the virus on the brain

I'd love to see a study that looks for possible relationships between blood antibody levels to these enteroviruses in the general healthy population (you need to use the plague reduction neutralization test for enterovirus testing, as only this is sensitive enough in long term infections), and changes in mental attitude.
 
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Solstice

Senior Member
Messages
641
But the point is that your are now more of a skeptical critic, rather that an gushing acolyte, of ideas.

Can't think of any instance where this would be bad to be honest. It has worked the same for me, and many parts of this illness I hate, but learning to think more critically and not taking things for granted has been an eye-opener. I now dig deeper on stuff I really want to know and am far less susceptible for fads.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,824
Can't think of any instance where this would be bad to be honest. It has worked the same for me, and many parts of this illness I hate, but learning to think more critically and not taking things for granted has been an eye-opener. I now dig deeper on stuff I really want to know and am far less susceptible for fads.

I agree with you in many ways; there is kind of cold light of sobriety to this more skeptical and cynical disposition, which enables you to much more clearly see when a concept or idea is dubious or is nonsense.
 

JaimeS

Senior Member
Messages
3,408
Location
Silicon Valley, CA
The question is how many times were you 'emotionally over-sensitive' and didn't contract ME?

You are questioning my own interpretation of my illness in the same way that we find so abhorrent in physicians. I can judge my own behavior, and am skilled at telling when it differs from 'my normal'. I am the expert when it comes to my own body and my own mind. :redface:

I was not depressed before onset, and would never say that depression had 'caused' onset. But along with my physical symptoms came tearfulness, rage, and the tendency to be easily irritable. I can directly link these behaviors to increases in inflammatory cytokines: no voodoo here. Frankly, the other times I've felt that way is when I had a very bad fever / acute illness: prone to tears and upset and irritability. My family always joked about how 'teenaged' I get when I'm sick: 'come here. Sit with me. No, go away. No, bring me water.' :rolleyes:

I've think I've read about people in early stages of diseases who feel more stressed or depressed prior to being diagnosed

Definitely part of the picture. I strongly feel that there is a period of grief one goes through with chronic illness, as you mourn the passing of your good health, the life you had invariably storyboarded in your head. This was different: it happened when I was very sick but before I admitted something was wrong, so the grief wasn't there, yet. If I had to give it a psych name, I would call it 'emotional lability'.

And now, as previously stated, I am likely more psychologically healthy than I have ever been. Something that invariably weirds out physicians, btw. Even when they fully and strongly believe that ME is not related to depression, there's this image that chronically ill people are just supposed to be sad about it and live the rest of their lives in mourning. I remember a physician said softly, "... and how's your social life?" I was excited to answer, because I was proud of myself: I've always been an introvert at heart. "Better than ever!" I said. "I was really worried about working just from home, so I joined a book club and sometimes we also go to cooking or painting classes together. And I make sure to go out with my best friend at least once or twice a week, and out to lunch with my mother once a week. Honestly I'm more social now than I was before!" The look on her face.

This WAS, unfortunately, a physician who STRONGLY associated ME with depression, and all my interactions with her made her bloody baffled. At that point I didn't know this, and had no idea why she found this a shocking answer. It seems logical to go out of your way to get more social interaction if you know that you'll be limited at other times.

I always feel like I should apologize after that, because I know 25% of us are housebound or bedbound, but I'm not there.

-J
 

Grigor

Senior Member
Messages
462
Location
Amsterdam
Older thread but simple question Do people with burn out get PEM? Or they just feel exhausted after exertion?
 

CFS_for_19_years

Hoarder of biscuits
Messages
2,396
Location
USA
Older thread but simple question Do people with burn out get PEM? Or they just feel exhausted after exertion?
I suffered from job burnout but I never had PEM when I exercised (former competitive swimmer, recreational cyclist and gym enthusiast). I didn't develop PEM until I came down with ME/CFS.
 

Grigor

Senior Member
Messages
462
Location
Amsterdam
I suffered from job burnout but I never had PEM when I exercised (former competitive swimmer, recreational cyclist and gym enthusiast). I didn't develop PEM until I came down with ME/CFS.
Thank you for explaining. So what do you experience after exercise during a burn out? Just feel exhausted?
 

CFS_for_19_years

Hoarder of biscuits
Messages
2,396
Location
USA
Thank you for explaining. So what do you experience after exercise during a burn out? Just feel exhausted?
When I had burnout I just felt a little exhausted, but not in need of rest. There were times when I would exercise before going to work and I would feel much more wide awake than usual upon arriving at work. Then I would work an 8-hour day, with the majority of it standing on my feet.