B12 as hydroxy and histamin

[Sundancer]

I've been using methylcobalamine and adenosyl for about 9 months, needed to go slow and careful because of adverse reactions. Was on 3 mg of bot daily.
One of the adverse reactions was itchiness which I interpreted as histamine problem. Another was potassium shortage.
so when i titrated up with half a mg I used bifido infantis and stopped eating things like chocolate/grapefruit which i can normally endure in small doses.

Now I switched to hydroxy, this after talking about it with specialist. he's a cardiologist specialized in ME/CFS patients.

It is a good switch ( i was pretty scared to do that btw, because I knew I could get very sick if dose was too high) These are nasal drops from curesupport.
https://www.curesupport.com/shop/nasaldrops/b12-hydroxo-nasaldrops/

sleep is better, deeper and more refreshing, no problems with falling asleep as I had with methyl and the best thing of all my breathing has become much better.

But I get a very bad itch and assorted shit. So concluded histamine problem.

I've ordered daosin, as a way to see whether that is underlying problem. I plan to take half a grapefruit ( sure way to get itchy) but with daosin beforehand. But I do wonder whether that would help against the B12 itch too.

the itch I've now is much worse then before. With titrating up methyl I had problems for about a week then it stopped and after another week I carefully started again with some histaminfoods which the went well.

Now of course I should go slow, which is what doctor advices me. But on the other hand I see how nerve damage is growing, and feel sure that high doses of hydroxy are going to help that. This doc will prescribe injections when I want them ( yeah, found a doc that will prescribe)

So looking for ways to dampen the histamine-reaction.

found this thread which is decidedly useful
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/ind...ylation-but-b12-raises-histamine.27334/page-2

so I'll slowly raise calcium-intake somewhat, B6 is just tested again, will get result soon and expect that it will be low enough to take it again. Zinc is problematic, but I am able to take zinc rich food now ( which I could not 2 years ago) so i plan to take a magnesium-supplement with low doses of both zinc and B6.

I can try to titrate up methylfolate, am on 400mcg now wich was enough with the methylcob.

but main question is, would it be helpful to take daosin against b12 mediated histamin problems or even to take ( over the counter) medicins against histamine.

I'm very against medication because I almost always have adverse reaction, but in this case I'm prepared to try.

thanks for reading this enormous post and hopefully respond.

 

[jason30]

Histamine OR mast cell reaction?

I get more itching when I speed up methylation too much. Somehow more mast cells getting released.

Hope this helps.

 

[Sundancer]

Histamine OR mast cell reaction?

I get more itching when I speed up methylation too much. Somehow more mast cells getting released.

Hope this helps.

yes, of course it is a mastcell thing, i did not formulate too well. Question is how to dampen that reaction.

 

[jason30]

I found the suggestions in this thread very helpful:
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/ind...d-antioxidant-is-a-mast-cell-inhibitor.60637/

Taurine stops the itching by me. I don't know if taurine reduces mast cells / histamine a lot, but there are some results about (locally administreated) taurine decreasing histamine and mast cells though. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24178432

 

[Sundancer]

hey, you're dutch too!

thanks, been reading some, too tired now, will come back when i can concentrate better

 

[jason30]

hey, you're dutch too!

thanks, been reading some, too tired now, will come back when i can concentrate better

Yes! Always nice to see dutch people here @PR.

Also, when you have some more energy, check methionine as extra support. It supports methylation and reduces histamine a lot.

Hopefully someone else can give you (more) tips on the b12.

All the best!

 

[outdamnspot]

Histamine OR mast cell reaction?

I get more itching when I speed up methylation too much. Somehow more mast cells getting released.

Hope this helps.

I've noticed my histamine symptoms (I think? Not sure the difference between that and mast cell reactions) have been worse the past few days while experimenting with methyl B12. Do you or @Sundancer have any idea why it could trigger a reaction? Is this part of 'detox' or an intolerance?

 

[jason30]

I've noticed my histamine symptoms (I think? Not sure the difference between that and mast cell reactions) have been worse the past few days while experimenting with methyl B12. Do you or @Sundancer have any idea why it could trigger a reaction? Is this part of 'detox' or an intolerance?

A lot of people are getting a release in histamine when using b12. Study shows that vitamin b12 decreases the activity of the enzym DAO (diamineoxydase), and this turns into a higher histamine level.

Some people have benefit from changing the methylated form to an unmethylated form.

 

[outdamnspot]

A lot of people are getting a release in histamine when using b12. Study shows that vitamin b12 decreases the activity of the enzym DAO (diamineoxydase), and this turns into a higher histamine level.

Some people have benefit from changing the methylated form to an unmethylated form.

Hm, interesting. However, the phrase that's stuck in my head from when I researched the issue several years ago is "high histamine, undermethylator", so shouldn't improving methylation with methyl donors like B12 help break down histamine? Do you have anything that supports methyl-b12 decreasing DAO?

 

[Sundancer]

I've noticed my histamine symptoms (I think? Not sure the difference between that and mast cell reactions) have been worse the past few days while experimenting with methyl B12. Do you or @Sundancer have any idea why it could trigger a reaction? Is this part of 'detox' or an intolerance?

A lot of people are getting a release in histamine when using b12. Study shows that vitamin b12 decreases the activity of the enzym DAO (diamineoxydase), and this turns into a higher histamine level.

Some people have benefit from changing the methylated form to an unmethylated form.

agreeing with @jason30 here, B12 temporarily downturns DAO enzyme. I remember at the start after an injection I first felt body stress ( high muscle-tension) go down quickly, then about an hour or so later muscle-tension returned somewhat accompanied by itching and after that the muscle-tension again lowered. Now that I take benadryl to go with the injection it goes well. I only take the benadryl to be able to take the injections. When I still used lozenges I found that the body slowy gets used to the B12 so I could slowly titrate up the dose.

I've always wondered why I did not get the itchiness from adenosyl-cobalamine though. I could easily take 5 mg of it without any itching when 1,5 mg of methyl was still intolerable. It suggests that it is the methylgroups that are the factor that lowers DAOenzyme.

But the hydroxyinjections have so much better results that I will not change back to lozenges. ( or methyl/adenosyl for that matter)

Hm, interesting. However, the phrase that's stuck in my head from when I researched the issue several years ago is "high histamine, undermethylator", so shouldn't improving methylation with methyl donors like B12 help break down histamine? Do you have anything that supports methyl-b12 decreasing DAO?

Yes, I've wondered about that too, maybe it's more a thing of the long run, I heard from another patient that in the long run her mastcell isues became less bad after a long time of using hydroxy injections. Also I sometimes think that when several sorts of mastcells are overactive the temporary lessening of the amount of DAO flips one over the edge.

I had a severe crash because of eating too much histamine food ( too much for me that is...one gets fed up with all the bland food and I've indulged in some cheese )

So I ended up back in very low functioning again, severe histaminfood intolerance and other shitty things.

I then added creatine ( which, according to Ben Lynch, takes a lot of methylation to create ) and choline, being a methyldonor. Doing decidedly better now. ( phew, another phase behind me)

Now wondering btw, whether changing the choline https://nl.iherb.com/pr/Solgar-Choline-350-mg-100-Vegetable-Capsule/14787 for sunflower lecithin which contains phospatidylcholine https://nl.iherb.com/pr/Now-Foods-Sunflower-Lecithin-Pure-Powder-1-lb-454-g/59514

anybody ideas on this? as my bottle of choline is quickly emptying I need to go shopping again and this product looks interesting to me.

 

[outdamnspot]

@Sundancer that makes sense. My B12 experiment has been confounded a little by dietary changes: my food intolerances have been getting so bad that I've been consuming solely ground beef for the past week, in order to see if I can get the ZC/Carnivore diet to work for me. Ground beef is supposedly high histamine, but I've never really reacted to it; however, I am consuming a lot more of it now.

I began taking the B12 around the same time as I made the dietary change and by day 3, I suddenly began experiencing very pronounced histamine symptoms. So either exposing myself to more ground beef is making me more intolerant of it, or the B12 is increasing histamine and making me more sensitive? Anyway, I guess I will have to stop the B12 for now to make sure, but I am hesitant because I get that same anti-stress effect and improved mood as soon as I apply it .. though that then morphs into extreme anxiety later on in the day; I'm using the transdermal oil (adenosyl/methyl mix) which is supposedly as strong as the injections, so maybe I can try it once or twice a week instead of everyday. Do you think the DAO enzyme would still normalize eventually if doses are taken intermittently like that, every few days?

 

[Sundancer]

@Sundancer that makes sense. My B12 experiment has been confounded a little by dietary changes: my food intolerances have been getting so bad that I've been consuming solely ground beef for the past week, in order to see if I can get the ZC/Carnivore diet to work for me. Ground beef is supposedly high histamine, but I've never really reacted to it; however, I am consuming a lot more of it now.

I began taking the B12 around the same time as I made the dietary change and by day 3, I suddenly began experiencing very pronounced histamine symptoms. So either exposing myself to more ground beef is making me more intolerant of it, or the B12 is increasing histamine and making me more sensitive? Anyway, I guess I will have to stop the B12 for now to make sure, but I am hesitant because I get that same anti-stress effect and improved mood as soon as I apply it .. though that then morphs into extreme anxiety later on in the day; I'm using the transdermal oil (adenosyl/methyl mix) which is supposedly as strong as the injections, so maybe I can try it once or twice a week instead of everyday. Do you think the DAO enzyme would still normalize eventually if doses are taken intermittently like that, every few days?

I do not know that, I've chosen to go for high dosage of B12 because I have neuropathy and other things clearly looking like severe b12 shortage, so I eat very low histamine plus take benadryl to handle it. I fare well on that and now looking into causes of mastcell activation and how to counter it.

found some simple ones, keep very well hydrated plus hypoxia is bad. i've had problems breathing for years now, 10 minutes after an injection I can suddenly get air, oh man...this is so good! lus that migt slowly help to calm down mastcells, I started on a probiotic that should be good for it.

I found ( and that is what is said in articles about mastcells too) that one can tolerate a certain amount, when you go over that amount boom. AFter a boom I live on porridge and mashed pumpkin for a while and then slowly build up again.


and I do not know what part of the B12 slows down DAOenzyme, I thought it would be the methyl-groups, but now that I take choline, I have not noticed an enormous flare of itch and other nasties ( which I was a bit of prepared for really)

mystery to me