The 12th Invest in ME Conference, Part 1
OverTheHills presents the first article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME international Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
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B 2 I love you part two.

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by brenda, Aug 30, 2018.

  1. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    I have spent the last few days looking through the B 2 I love you! thread, the Hair Analysis one and the one that does not love B 2. The reason is that I have run into difficulties on the whole food plant based SOS (no sugar oil or salt) diet. This was preceeded by the AIP paleo one which made me run into problems with the high fat ie gall bladder attackes and weight gain. Prior to that I was eating macrobiotic and did not improve enough. I think it is B 12 deficiency as I am eating no animal products at all and despite taking Hydroxycobalamine 98 mcg.

    I have been having insomnia again the last few weeks and my stools have not been formed which I understand to be folate deficiency.

    So I decided that in order to correct the deficiencies I need to make sure that my B 2 is up as I have been deficient in this vitamin before and had a huge improvement when Christine Heubner (Dog Person) advised it, and my eyes have been itching.

    So for 2 days running I have taken a smudgen of R5P on the end of a wet fingertip which is a very small amount and had 2 good nights sleep. It is much less than I took before but I am not willing to increase it yet until I have the supplements I need that is to say - folinic acid and methyl folate and possibly methyl B 12. If anyone can advise good ones in the UK I will be grateful.

    I am not peeing out yellow yet. I am confident that the WFPB diet will have put me in a much better position to tackle my methylation problems. There have been significant improvements to my health including curing diabetes and lowering blood pressure to normal. I have also had loads more energy before this B 12 thing popped up.

    Please accept my apologies to the people who asked me questions to which I did not reply. I had a tough time last year moving house.
     
  2. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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    Given that you are in a restricted diet after having known nutrient deficiencies in the past, it might be extremely prudent to do a comprehensive nutrient test to determine your nutrient status before randomly trying supplements, whixh tend to work together in various biochemical processes.

    Methyl B12 works with B2, B6, magnesium, potassium, TMG and methionine in the methionine cycle.

    The 98mcg of B12 sounds very low. My body needs 10mg a day on top of B12 from ample animal protein in my diet. I'm not recommending you take that much, only trying to illustrate the range of different B12 dosing. I also take 250mg of R5P and 350mg of P5P, which my body needs based on lab testing, but no one would guess because they are much higher than standard recommendations.

    These nutrients are critically important to our body's functions. Peeing yellow and taking a smudgeon aren't good ways of ensuring your body has an adequate amount.

    You may also need injectible forms of these nutrients in addition to oral if your body is depleted or you have malabsorption issues.
    Working wirh a competent functional meficine doctor or nutritionist would be wise as starting up a program can bring on worse side effects until you settle in with a program optimized for your body.

    I take Thorne Research, Seeking Health, and Designs for Health supplements as they screen all their ingredients and have high manufacturing standards.
     
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  3. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    @Learner1

    Thank you for your reply. I am not really on a restricted diet. it is a nutritionally dense one and the only things that I will be short of are b12, b2 obviously, and omega 3 which I take from algae oil. Most people do exceedingly well on this diet. I am in a much better condition nutritionally since on a meat based diet hence the way my body is healing. I did not need to go on a methylation program to get my body into healing mode - it already is.

    I did try MeB 12 in the past and had adverse effects and also with MeF and that is why I kept my Hydroxy 12 lowish to see how I went and was doing well till 2 weeks ago. I know I need to up it and the B 2 but I need to get the other supplements in place first. I already have the potassium and understand the process.

    I doubt that I would be able to find a plant based practioner near me nor can I afford a functional doctor or nutritionist, just like many here. But thanks again for the tips.
     
  4. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

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  5. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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    One can be on a plant based diet and still eat meat. People are meant to be omnivores. Meat contains amino acids, which many female ME/CFS patients are deficient in, zinc and iron which many are also deficient in and are necessary for proper immune function, and B12.
     
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  6. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    I had been eating wild salmon, but found that my weight was not going down when I did so, and weight loss is important for my overall health. But anyway the nutrients in meat can be found in the vegetable world. It is a myth that protein must come from animals. Cows get theirs from grass and you only have to look at vegan body builders and athletes for the truth.

    But you have made me wonder about dessicated liver capsules so thanks for that. I have lost my appetite for meat products.
     
  7. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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    I never said that plants do not contain protein. They do. However, it's not as efficient to get the protein as there's a lot of bulk and a lot of carbohydrates involved, without saturated fats which are critical for membranes, a problem area for ME/CFS patients.

    Attached is a recent study by 2 Norwegian researchers who found that patients with ME/CFS tend to burn amino acids for fuel.

    I am pointing this out because I found this to be true in my case - my dictor did an amino acid profile after funding my total protein was always low on a complete metabolic panel, as were my immunoglobulins, a key part of the immune system, which are made from amino acids. My amino acids had been running low, and they matched the exact pattern as in Fluge and Mella's study.

    This happened while I was eating 95g of protein a day, the equivalent of 10 cups of beans or 5 cups of lentils. My doctors had me increase my intake to 135-140g of protein a day, which is about 1.85g/kg. It would be virtually impossible to eat that as plants only, just by sheer food bulk, and recent studies have shown plant based protein powders, even organic ones, to be heavily contaminated with heavy metals. A combination of protein sources can work well.

    Additionally, many ME/CFS patients are finding that lower carbohydrate diets can be a helpful tool in this disease, due to the inability to use carbohydrates for fuel as described in the study.

    And, as I mentioned, many ME/CFS patients are short of B12, iron and zinc, which are critical for immune function, mitochondria function, etc. and foods most plentiful in these nutrients happen to be animal proteins.

    Losing your appetite for meat is a symptom that should be looked into, especially if it's been going on for a while. It could be a side effect of a medication, digestive system issue, hormone imbalance, even possibly cancer (though I hope not).
     

    Attached Files:

  8. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    @Learner1

    The study you cited, was funded by the Kavli Trust which is a wholesale company selling cheese products. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kavli_Trust. Norway has a high consumption of dairy products. So I am afraid that this disqualifies the study as biased.

    Besides, it was conducted on people who eat the typical modern diet, meat based, and no doubt plenty of simple carbohydrates. Those who adopt the plant based diet, without exception become much healthier and see their chronic illnesses disappear which is what was experienced by myself as my diabetes went away despite me eating high complex carbs. This si the experience of those with ME/CFS too with many testimonies that the condition was reversed.

    This class of people will not be touching the protein powders you mention as they are not whole foods.

    I went on it myself and was better for a while but soon developed problems which I found are common, like increased insulin ressitence and gall bladder problems.

    Those with ME/CFS that go on a low(er) carbohyrate diet usually give up eating processed unhealthy food, and any diet that does this will show some improvement in energy.

    You cannot compare the typical vegan diet to the plant based one as far as nutrients are concerned. Many vegans eat a very unhealthy diet and possibly do not get enough protein. You have to go and look at vegan athletes to see the difference as they will not be eating unhealthily or just look at the plant based gurus and read the studies.

    I do not understand why anyone will take the dietary advice of a doctor when they receive little training in the subject and as previously shown a lot of studies are conducted by biased milk and meat marketing boards.

    I only lost my taste for meat a few months ago and most likely it is because of the change in my gut microbiome. Definitely not because of medications as I take none even at 68 years of age, or the other reasons you give. But thanks for the concern.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2018
  9. sb4

    sb4 Senior Member

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    I have to disagree here. I certainly believe plant based diets can help (sometimes massively) some people but without exception is taking it a bit far.

    I don't tolerate carbs well ever since getting ill, many others with CFS can attest to this. I tried all potatoes for a while; a mix of rice, potatoes, and fruit juices also for over a month. My POTS was noticeably worse in this time in comparison to my baseline diet of high fat low carb.

    Having said this I do believe there is a mechanism for high carb/plant based to work in some people and I believe it is worth a shot for most people to see how they do on it.
     
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  10. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    @sb4

    I am on a number of Facebook WFPB support groups and although people come on and say that their weight is not going down as fast as they thought, there has never been a person who has said that their health did not improve dramatically. Hearsay okay but you get the truth in these support groups as there is nothing to gain from deception. Yes people can run into deficiencies which are usually from b12 or omega 3 but are told right from the start to supplement them.

    I am not surprised that you did not do well on a diet of such high glycemic index foods especially fruit juice. I would get worse as well.
     
  11. sb4

    sb4 Senior Member

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    Is potato high glycemic? I think it might be but don't know.

    Either way I don't think it is the glycemic index causing the problem as I notice this effect from carbs eaten with fatty foods. This should dampen the glycemic index right?

    I also took my BG whilst doing very high carb and it went back to normal quickly indicating it's not necessarily the insulin that's the problem, more how my cells struggle using the glucose.
     
  12. Moof

    Moof Senior Member

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    @brenda, if you find you need a source of injectable hydroxocobalamin that can be obtained in the UK, let me know – I self-inject, and buy it from a reputable German supplier. If you didn't fancy buying 100 ampoules all at once (about £57), there's a British Facebook group called B12 Share the Cost, where people split orders between them. The minimum order there is one box, which contains 10 x 1mg/1ml ampoules.
     
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  13. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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    The study I shared was by well-regarded researchers who have also done the Rituximab trials. It is important to know where funding comes from and look for biases associated, the data here was pretty convincing and the PDH block has been found by other researchers.

    And, anecdotally, my amino acid panel results showed deficiencies in all of the same aminos found in the study.

    My main doctor is a naturopathic doctor whose training included a great deal of nutrition. He is definitely in favor of plant based diets, but recognizes thst the nutrients in organically farmed animal products or wild fish are essential to health.
    That makes sense. Good luck in regsining your microbiome health.
     
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  14. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    I'm afraid I do not share your confidence in commercially funded trials.
     
  15. Antonello

    Antonello

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    Hello @brenda I'm new in this forum and I came here only find out more about B2. In particular I would love to understand more about the connection with riboflavin and the microbiome, this is somenthing Cristine didn't mentioned but she prefer plain riboflavin instead of the r5p version. Have you find a difference beetwen them?
    I wonder if is just plain B2 that has the prebioticf effects
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27380884
    https://www.dsm.com/markets/pharma/...iboflavin-as-a-novel-prebiotic-candidate.html
     
  16. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    @Antonello I have only tried the r5p. I had to stop b2 again because it looked like my pancreas was not happy - pale floating stools. Am have started hydrox b12 injections and hoping my sleep will be okay tonight.
     
  17. Antonello

    Antonello

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    I get the same low folate low b12 symptoms with B2.
    The first day I feel great but from the second day insomnia and dry tongue kicks in.
     
    brenda likes this.

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