B-12 - The Hidden Story

[greenshots]

I would think that colds could raise histamine levels but allergies are more likely to be related to high histamine so even though histamine might be up with infection as well, it doesn't seem like it would be the bigger part of the story here. although viral and bacterial illness bring all kinds of issues with glutamate elevation and those inflammatory cytokines that Dr. yasko and almost every other researcher talks about so that would be an issue too.

Angela

I just read that histimine is an excitatory neurotransmitter. So if you have cold symptoms, your histimine is high, right? So something was keeping histimine in check, and then not, so Deepak and my friend both got colds. I wish I understood the neurotransmitter relationships.

 

[adreno]

Yes, more histamine is likely released by mast cells during a cold, but high histamine levels is not a cause of colds. In fact, it is not a cause of anything. It is an effect, due to an immunological reaction.

 

[Deepak]

Hey adreno,

I read in one of your earlier posts that you too got a similar reaction of sniffles and histamine? Could you tell me if they have gone by now ? What else did you experience when you started this and has it settled yet ??

Love,
Deepak

 

[adreno]

Hey adreno,

I read in one of your earlier posts that you too got a similar reaction of sniffles and histamine? Could you tell me if they have gone by now ? What else did you experience when you started this and has it settled yet ??

Love,
Deepak

It seemed to improve after a while. I can't say for sure that it will go away though.

It could mean an imbalance of the B vitamins, maybe. I am not taking B12 or folate at the moment, only B2.

 

[Deepak]

It seemed to improve after a while. I can't say for sure that it will go away though.

It could mean an imbalance of the B vitamins, maybe. I am not taking B12 or folate at the moment, only B2.

Why did you stop ? And can you please tell what B2 helps in ?

 

[adreno]

Why did you stop ? And can you please tell what B2 helps in ?

You might want to take a look at this thread:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/showthread.php?t=16901

 

[hixxy]

Has anyone tried transdermal methylb12 cream? Is it well absorbed?

 

[Lynn_M]

Enada, the manufacturer of a stabilized form of NADH (nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide) says at http://enadh.com/about/coq10/:
"NADH makes Coenzyme Q-10 in the body into an antioxidant; hence, CoQ10 needs NADH to become effective. Additionally, Co Q10 concentrations may be increased with NADH supplements . If you take commercially available coenzyme Q10 without an equivalent dose of NADH, you may deplete the cell from NADH and thereby make the cell energy deficient and prone to degeneration.

This fact implies two consequences: the intake of commercially available CoQ10 is not very meaningful unless the organism has sufficient ammounts of cellular NADH available to reduce CoQ10 and make it an antioxidant."

Is there any reason to dispute Enada's claim about needing to take NADH with CoQ10?

 

[Lynn_M]

Does the urinary MMA test still reflect a B12 deficiency after a person has been supplementing mB12 for 10 days?

I have a friend that appears to me to have CFS and a lot of B12 deficiency symptoms. I suggested that before she added in mB12 and Metafolin supplementation, she should get a urinary MMA test to try to get confirmation that my hypothesis is correct.

One week ago she did submit a urine sample for a MMA test. She had no bloodwork done. Since then, she added in daily 1000mcg Jarrow mB12 under the upper lip for 45 minutes, and Pure Encapsulations B Complex Plus, which has 400 mcg Metafolin. She continued on with her usual Vit. D, Omega 3, mag/calcium, and IntraMax supplements.

Today she got her MMA results. Apparently the local hospital sent the sample on to Mayo Clinic. It was reported as serum MMA 5.08 nmol/ml, with a ref. range of 0-.4 nmol/ml. When she questioned the local hospital as to why a serum result was given, with serum ref. range and units of measurement, when it was a urine sample, they said they would check into it. Apparently when blood is spun down, the serum looks like urine, so the hospital spokesperson speculated that at some point some tech must have thought they were working with a blood sample.

It seems she will have to redo the test. My question is, now that she will have taken mB12 and methylfolate for around 10 days, if my friend had a deficiency before starting mB12 & L-5-MTHF, will the urinary MMA result obtained from a current urine sample still be reflective of a B12 deficiency? How quickly does MMA change when supplementation has been started?

Regarding my question above about CoQ10 and NADH. After reading through all 253 pages of this thread, plus the Active B12 Basics thread, plus others, I thought some people here would be taking CoQ10, and therefore would have an interest in factors that would impact it. After not getting a response, I wonder if I should be posting in a different thread, or if there was something inappropriate about my question. Is this thread still alive?

I hope I get some response to this, my second post on this thread.

 

[greenshots]

I suppose it could come up on the test somewhat in that short period of time but both my neurologist and my CFS/ME practitioner told me the MMA often takes 6 months to a year before it reflects the true B12 storage and this is why most doctors recommend treating it for so long, regardless of having normal or high numbers.

The MMA test is elevated when its actually low whereas a low level means its high. But the B12 test is supposed to be typical mid-range and is considered a functional defiency when its high--meaning you have it but can't really use it. Although I think I read in a prior post by Dr. vank that the MMA specifically tests for adenosylcobalamin. You might want to make this a separate thread though to get more feedback since this one is mostly an informative post now with it being so old and having so many pages of postings.

Good luck!
Angela

Does the urinary MMA test still reflect a B12 deficiency after a person has been supplementing mB12 for 10 days?

I have a friend that appears to me to have CFS and a lot of B12 deficiency symptoms. I suggested that before she added in mB12 and Metafolin supplementation, she should get a urinary MMA test to try to get confirmation that my hypothesis is correct.

One week ago she did submit a urine sample for a MMA test. She had no bloodwork done. Since then, she added in daily 1000mcg Jarrow mB12 under the upper lip for 45 minutes, and Pure Encapsulations B Complex Plus, which has 400 mcg Metafolin. She continued on with her usual Vit. D, Omega 3, mag/calcium, and IntraMax supplements.

Today she got her MMA results. Apparently the local hospital sent the sample on to Mayo Clinic. It was reported as serum MMA 5.08 nmol/ml, with a ref. range of 0-.4 nmol/ml. When she questioned the local hospital as to why a serum result was given, with serum ref. range and units of measurement, when it was a urine sample, they said they would check into it. Apparently when blood is spun down, the serum looks like urine, so the hospital spokesperson speculated that at some point some tech must have thought they were working with a blood sample.

It seems she will have to redo the test. My question is, now that she will have taken mB12 and methylfolate for around 10 days, if my friend had a deficiency before starting mB12 & L-5-MTHF, will the urinary MMA result obtained from a current urine sample still be reflective of a B12 deficiency? How quickly does MMA change when supplementation has been started?

Regarding my question above about CoQ10 and NADH. After reading through all 253 pages of this thread, plus the Active B12 Basics thread, plus others, I thought some people here would be taking CoQ10, and therefore would have an interest in factors that would impact it. After not getting a response, I wonder if I should be posting in a different thread, or if there was something inappropriate about my question. Is this thread still alive?

I hope I get some response to this, my second post on this thread.

 

[hixxy]

Is methylfolate directly involved in RNA / DNA syntesis or is it only folinic acid that is involved in this directly?

Is only folic acid detrimental when supplementing methylfolate, or is folinic acid not okay as well?

Is the body able to convert methylfolate back to folinic acid on demand?

So many questions!

hixxy

 

[roxie60]

There is a lot to this thread, trying to get thru all the ifno, very overwhelming to a newbie but dont see any other options to trying to understand what is going on w/ me/body. Just to add my exerience unl I can rad hru all the posts.

GP started me on CYANOCOBALAMIN 1000mcg 2x's / month for 1.5 yrs, then 1Q12 started 1x/m because B12 number increased (called it maintenance). I never felt better/different even tho blood showed increase in B12. Last week 3/12 GP tested for MTHFR - A1298C positive. Immediately told me to stop the B12 shots.

Started me on PURE b12 5000 liquid (after reading this thread how long should liquid stay under tongue??) and generic Mentanx (folate 3mg/B6 35mg/B12 2mg ???)

Also taking baby aspirin 81mg, PURE D3 5000, and started PURE UltraB w/ PQQ w/ metefolin L-5-MTHF (just started this last one a couple days ago, gives me indigestion for 30-45mins).

I think the brain fog has improved but not gone completely. exehema/psoriasis (thats what Drs/nurses call it, I'm not convinced) less but maybe just in btween flairups. Anyone taking methyl b12 relate that to less diarrhea or is that wishful thinking on my part?

How long does it take to feel more energetic on methy b12? Been on it for a month now. TIA

 

[richvank]

Is methylfolate directly involved in RNA / DNA syntesis or is it only folinic acid that is involved in this directly?

Is only folic acid detrimental when supplementing methylfolate, or is folinic acid not okay as well?

Is the body able to convert methylfolate back to folinic acid on demand?

So many questions!

hixxy

Hi, hixxy.

There are two forms of folate that are needed for RNA and DNA synthesis. They are 5,10 methylene tetrahydrofolate and 10-formyl tetrahydrofolate. Folinic acid is 5-formyl tetrahydrofolate. Folinic acid can normally be converted into these other two forms fairly readily, by two sequential reactions in each case. Methylfolate must be converted to tetrahydrofolate by the methionine synthase reaction before it can be converted to these other forms, and in ME/CFS, methionine synthase is partially blocked, so this does not work very well until the partial block of methionine synthase is lifted by a methylation protocol.

If a person has versions of the various enzymes in the folate metabolism that are not slow because of polymorphisms, and also has enough NADPH, folic acid and folinic acid are both usable for forming methylfolate. However, many people have polymorphisms (or more seriously, mutations, which are polymorphisms that are more rare, but have more severe effects) in the various enzymes, and many people with ME/CFS are low in NADPH. This can make folic acid and even folinic acid less usable. People vary in this respect.

The way that B12 comes into these folate issues is that if there is an absolute or a functional deficiency in B12, the methionine synthase reaction becomes partially blocked. Other folates are converted into methylfolate, and thus become depleted. Methylfolate in ME/CFS is broken down by reaction with peroxynitrite, which rises because of the oxidative stress that goes with glutathione depletion.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[Arizona]

Hi everyone. This is my first time posting but I've been lurking for ages.

I was diagnosed with low b12 last year. They said my level was 56. Symptoms include always being tired, brain fog, light headedness, weak and tired muscles, bladder problems etc.

I've been following the protocol for about 6 months and although I'm feeling better (I no longer feel the need to take a nap in the middle of the day) I'm still nowhere near feeling 100%

Here is what I am taking-

1x jarrow methyl b12 5000 per day
5x enzymatic therapy 1mg per day
1x solgar folate 800mcg
1x bio care b-plex per day
1x source naturals ad12 10mg twice per week
2x 1000mg omega 3-6-9 per day
1x vitamin E 400i.u. per day
1x vitamin A 8000i.u. per day
1x vitamin D3 per day
1x cod liver oil 1000mg per day
1x l-carintine fumarate 855mg per day
1x TMG 500mg per day
1x zinc picolinate 50mg per day
1x d-ribose 850mg per day
2x vitamin C 1000 per day
1x potassium 99mg per day

I would be really grateful if you could offer any suggestions on where I might be going wrong.

Also I had zero startup effects. Does this mean the treatment might not be working?

 

[Lynn_M]

Rich wrote:
"If a person has versions of the various enzymes in the folate metabolism that are not slow because of polymorphisms, and also has enough NADPH, folic acid and folinic acid are both usable for forming methylfolate. However, many people have polymorphisms (or more seriously, mutations, which are polymorphisms that are more rare, but have more severe effects) in the various enzymes, and many people with ME/CFS are low in NADPH. This can make folic acid and even folinic acid less usable. People vary in this respect."

I tested homozygous last month for the A1298C MTHFR mutation. Would my body be able to use folinic acid?

I have taken DMG Complete by purezenhealth for 4 years, because it was recommended to my hetero brother. My SpectraCell test back then showed I was low on cobalamin, so I thought I might also be hetero for A1298C. I stocked up on 800 capsules of DMB Complete a few months ago. DMG Complex contains 800 mcg calcium folinate, 50 mg B2, 150 mg DMG, 50 mg choline, and 6 mcg mB12. Last month I added in 800 mcg. of Solgar Metafolin, 2.5 mg SN adB12, and 1 mg of Jarrow SL mB12, which I tuck under my upper lip, in addition to the other supplements I was already taking, which included the red dot brand of mB12.

Because of the folinic acid, I'm not sure whether to continue the DMG Complete. I never felt any different taking it. I think the other ingredients should be helpful, but I'm concerned about whether the folinic acid would hinder my absorption of the Metafolin.

Also, is NADH a supplement that might help me? When I took one pill of Enada DHA about 10 years ago, I felt an amazing difference, in that my eyelids felt like they were opening far wider than before. I didn't feel any reaction from the rest of the bottle, so I stopped taking it. But I had that same great change of feeling in my eyes when I started on the Jarrow mB12 and the SN adB12 last month. Those are the only two times I've ever felt a distinct and sudden positive difference from a supplement.

 

[place]

Lyn... I have the same issue. I am Homo for MTHFR. I got this test two years ago for some infertility testing. I just found it recently as I began the b12s.

I did post a question about it and they said I really need the metafolin and to stay away from folic acid as it was toxic to me. I do get sick with folic acid.

I need to do more research on it. let me know if you discover anything else... I am doing Freddds protocol. There is just so much information I feel lost, dazed and confused!

Place

 

[Lynn_M]

Place,

Folinic acid is different than folic acid. No question about needing to avoid folic acid, but folinic acid could be a different story.

Do you know which MTHFR mutation you have? You might try checking out mthfr.net for more information. I don't have a problem with a lot of information. I get upset when it's conflicting and inaccurate, and most of the advice given for MTHFR in conventional medicine is just wrong.

 

[Marlène]

What a tremendous amount of information! Thanks Fredd and everyone for contributing. I made it through the first 12 pages ...

I suspected something was wrong with my weekly injections of cyanoB12 (first) and hydroxyB12 (second) when I made an excel sheet of my lab results of the last 3 years.
Only when B12 (full blood) was over 2000, my monocytosis disappeared. Then there was a severe transferrine deficiency and copper defiency.

CyanoB12 injections were unbearable, so painful and I couldn't move my limbs for about a day, as if I was paralysed. It gave me a lot of acne as well.
Then I switched to hydroxyB12. My brainfog and stamina improved for 24 hours after an injection but then the effect disappeared again.

This week I received the results of the methylation cycle test at ELN in the Netherlands.

-- SAM
++ SAH
++ homocysteine (slightly elevated)
-- methylcobalamine (extreme): 37 pmol/l (ref 95-500)
-- THF
++ sulfite (extreme)
++ sulfate
++ thiosulfate (extreme)
-- thiocyanate (extreme)
-- serotonine
-- pyridoxic (extreme)
-- fumaric acid
-- pantothenic
-- glutamic acid

I tried a multivitamine with methionine a few times but I became (more than) agressive even if the dosage was very low.
My doctor is very concerned with these results but doesn't know what to advice. I've read a lot of tips and tricks but in the end I don't know anymore.

Where can I find relevant scientific articles that can help me support my case in front an insurance? They don't accept the condition ME/CFS but maybe the methylation block and B12 can do the trick. Any advice anyone?

One thing to understand is that hydroxyb12 is not active. It MUST be changed by the body to either of the two active forms, adb12 and mb12 to have any effect except simple chemical effects such as detoxing cyanide.

How come it is not changed? Is it one of the enzyme deficiencies and if yes, which one?

Many thanks and keep up the great work!

 

[Crux]

Hi everyone. This is my first time posting but I've been lurking for ages.

I was diagnosed with low b12 last year. They said my level was 56. Symptoms include always being tired, brain fog, light headedness, weak and tired muscles, bladder problems etc.

I've been following the protocol for about 6 months and although I'm feeling better (I no longer feel the need to take a nap in the middle of the day) I'm still nowhere near feeling 100%

Here is what I am taking-

1x jarrow methyl b12 5000 per day
5x enzymatic therapy 1mg per day
1x solgar folate 800mcg
1x bio care b-plex per day
1x source naturals ad12 10mg twice per week
2x 1000mg omega 3-6-9 per day
1x vitamin E 400i.u. per day
1x vitamin A 8000i.u. per day
1x vitamin D3 per day
1x cod liver oil 1000mg per day
1x l-carintine fumarate 855mg per day
1x TMG 500mg per day
1x zinc picolinate 50mg per day
1x d-ribose 850mg per day
2x vitamin C 1000 per day
1x potassium 99mg per day

I would be really grateful if you could offer any suggestions on where I might be going wrong.

Also I had zero startup effects. Does this mean the treatment might not be working?

Hi Arizona;


A B12 level of 56 is extremely low. You must have felt really poorly. One possibility is that you may have Pernicious Anemia, a severe form of B12 deficiency. Have you been tested for it? Usually, the blood is tested for antibodies to intrinsic factor, IF, and parietal cells.

Some other possibilities are malabsorption, or difficulties with transport of B12.

People with these conditions may need increased amounts of B12. They often respond better to injections. Many may need more frequent injections than the doctor suggests....

 

[Arizona]

My doctor is not interested. The only thing they were willing to give me was cyanocobalamin which I knew from here wasn't any good. I started taking jarrow formulas b12 and my blood tests came back at 802 so my doctor thinks I'm cured.

I live an the UK so I don't have access to methyl b12 injections.

I have been tested for pernicious anemia but I don't have it. I've had IBS since I was 10 years old (I'm 25 now) so I think that may have caused my low b12.