B-12 - The Hidden Story

[Freddd]

Hi Freddd,

I used Yarrow Mehtyl B12 -1000 mg - and kept it in place for 1 hour.I will definitely start methylfolate soon and report the result.

Best

Excellent. Keep on keeping on.

 

[dmholmes]

Hi David,

I don't know if they do. I can generate you a schedule at 1% per day or 1.5% or 2% for klonopin, no problem. Fortunately that is only 5mg valium equivalent for the taper purposes. At 1% per day that comes down at 25% per month of the declining balance. It will be easier if he will give the other sizes, and at the end, some lorazapm if you want to try that method. A 1% taper requires 100 days worth of medication at the original quantity.

Would that still be using the water to dilute it? I read the Ashton stuff a while back, I believe that was how it was done.

I have the .25mg, and can get the .125mg, but they can't be cut with a pill cutter.

Thanks,
David

 

[dmholmes]

Hi David,

No, I see nothing that would really conflict. 20mcg of b12 from yeast isn't useful but the body is well equiped to weed that out and is present in such small quantities it's not likely to be any harm at all unless you depended upon it exclusively. A lot of it looks actually pretty good.

I used to take a lot of brewer's yeast and things like that.

Freddd, thanks for checking it out. I ended up taking that multi back. The pills are tablets, too big, and need 6 per day. I'll look for another multi, or keep taking them in separate pills. I did like the fact that they were from natural food source though.

 

[dannybex]

Hi Dan,

The Ashton protocol is generrally excellent. Are you switched to valium or doing it with Klonopin? What is your current dose. A good benzo taper is a long one, typically 1-2 years. In either case I have found for myself that if I switch to a shorter halflife benzo like Lorazapam that doesn't last long enough to reestablish accomodation, that I can bring it to a comfortable close far more easlily and quickly than with Valium. Valium (and klonopin) has such a long halflife that each dose causes some accomodation in itself where as if I use Lorazapam, in small doses, the final taper happens in two weeks without a problem. Also, I have found in myself and others that mb12 relieves most of the neurological effects of protracted withdrawal. If you would like the details of that kind of minitaper let me know. Being able to do that I don't fear using Valium when I need to any more because it has become so quick and easy getting over the low level accomodation. This only works for the last couple of mg. I got back on the Valium for 2 months with the glutathione because of the vicious spasms that started up and was able to end it in 3 weeks. I wasn't taking a lot, only 10-20mg/day and in 2 months I was only partly accomodated to that. I used to fear the valium because of the reaccomodation. It took me a year to get off it the first time.

Hi Freddd,

Very intriguing re the Lorazapam final taper! I did the switch to valium in May 2008 and am currently stuck at about 6.5 - 7mgs per day (down from 10-12mgs), divided into three doses. It seems like any time I miss a dose or try to go even 1/2 mg lower, the tingling/twitching/numbness increases...

I would definitely like the details of the mini-taper, but for now I'll start the b12's and the folate...see how that goes for a few weeks (or more?) and go from there. Again, it would be so wonderful to get off that drug (those benzos...don't get me started!) and stay off of it...free of the neurological symptoms.

MANY THANKS,

d.

 

[Freddd]

Hi Freddd,

Very intriguing re the Lorazapam final taper! I did the switch to valium in May 2008 and am currently stuck at about 6.5 - 7mgs per day (down from 10-12mgs), divided into three doses. It seems like any time I miss a dose or try to go even 1/2 mg lower, the tingling/twitching/numbness increases...

I would definitely like the details of the mini-taper, but for now I'll start the b12's and the folate...see how that goes for a few weeks (or more?) and go from there. Again, it would be so wonderful to get off that drug (those benzos...don't get me started!) and stay off of it...free of the neurological symptoms.

MANY THANKS,

d.

Hi Danny,

I know how to get you past the problem of the 1/2mg attempt to decrease. So let me know when you want to continue the decrease. The method I use can get a little tedious and inconvienient but it doesn't run into the type of problerm you are having. You need to be down to 2.5 mg/day or less before you can do the minitaper.

 

[Freddd]

Would that still be using the water to dilute it? I read the Ashton stuff a while back, I believe that was how it was done.

I have the .25mg, and can get the .125mg, but they can't be cut with a pill cutter.

Thanks,
David

Hi David, no problem on the pill cutter at all. That isn't needed using the method I'll show you. It is different from the water dilution too but that can be used.

 

[winston]

B12

Hi Fredd, last night after dinner I took the Folate 800 mcg and within an hour I felt very sleepy and you mentioned that could happen. This morning I felt a definite drop in energy. I am so disappointed, Saturday, Sunday, Monday and especially Tuesday I was on a high having more energy than before. I thought I was on my way to better days. What does this mean if anything?

Lena

 

[Freddd]

Hi Fredd, last night after dinner I took the Folate 800 mcg and within an hour I felt very sleepy and you mentioned that could happen. This morning I felt a definite drop in energy. I am so disappointed, Saturday, Sunday, Monday and especially Tuesday I was on a high having more energy than before. I thought I was on my way to better days. What does this mean if anything?

Lena

Hi Lena,

Often it means that you have run out of one of the cofactors that hasn't been started. However, with methylfolate it can also mean redistribution of b12 in the tissues. When both b12s and all needed cofactors are present an equilibrium is reached that is much more even usually. After an equilibrium is reached then fine tuning for ratios between mb12 and adb12 and other adjustments can be made. Have you continued the mb12 and at what level? This energy thing is very dependent on adb12 and l-carnitine fumarate especially. A lack of Zinc or magnesium can shut it down. A lack of other b vitamin components can shut it down. At least one person found vitamin D to be the key. Sam-e can be the key. What are you taking currently.

 

[Freddd]

Anybody that wants a taper should give me the specifics via private message and I'll need an email address to send the taper to as a slow taper is long. It can be for benzos, opioids, antiseizure, antidepressant, antipsychotic etc. Basically any med that you should NOT be quit suddenly. It's a very gentle taper method that can be used at any rate needed including for those who have had trouble before including with the Ashton protocol. It is a variation on the Ashton protocol but more flexible. The Ashton protocol was derived from the VA bartiturate withdrawal protocol. Changes are always below Just Noticable Difference on a daily and accumulated basis.

 

[winston]

B12

Fredd, I am taking B-Right two times a day, adb12, methylb12 5 mg, folate, potassium, active C, E, magnesium malate 1250 mg, citracal 250 mg + 400 iu D, D-1000 iu, 500 mg fish oil, centrum which has 11 mg of zinc, iflora, and Udo's omega fatty acids made with flax, sesame, sunflower & other seed oils.
Is there anything I should increase, on your essential list you mention zinc 50 mg & vit D 3000 - 5000. Two years ago my doctor tested my D and it was low so I started vit D, this last year it was normal, maybe with all these b12 I may need more vit D. Let me know what you think. Thanks,

Lena

 

[Freddd]

Fredd, I am taking B-Right two times a day, adb12, methylb12 5 mg, folate, potassium, active C, E, magnesium malate 1250 mg, citracal 250 mg + 400 iu D, D-1000 iu, 500 mg fish oil, centrum which has 11 mg of zinc, iflora, and Udo's omega fatty acids made with flax, sesame, sunflower & other seed oils.
Is there anything I should increase, on your essential list you mention zinc 50 mg & vit D 3000 - 5000. Two years ago my doctor tested my D and it was low so I started vit D, this last year it was normal, maybe with all these b12 I may need more vit D. Let me know what you think. Thanks,

Lena

Hi Lena,

The general thought on vitamin D these days is that a lot more than 400 or even 1400 units are needed. Many people just plain feel better on more. 14mg of Zinc seems rather on the low side, at least during an intial period of healing. How are you feeling? How are things going? Is it the methylfolate, any brand, that you are taking? That seems to make a difference for a lot of people compared to folic acid. The hardest part is often having patience and giving ther body time to heal. Exercise is important but don't over do it. In another month, you might want to try the l-carnitine fumarate, especially if energy isn't fully restored or brainfog cleared.

 

[dmholmes]

Freddd, how long would one need to be off B12 supplements to get an accurate MMA?

Also, I checked with the doctor I've had for most of my life to see if B12 serum tests were ever run. They said no. So the 287 serum level from 2/09 is the only one I've had.

 

[Freddd]

Freddd, how long would one need to be off B12 supplements to get an accurate MMA?

Also, I checked with the doctor I've had for most of my life to see if B12 serum tests were ever run. They said no. So the 287 serum level from 2/09 is the only one I've had.

Hi David,

Anywhere from maybe 3-5 years to a lifetime depending upon how fast you lose b12 via the bile and toxins. The trouble is that MMA detects an adenosylb12 deficiency specifically. Once the adenosylb12 parks in the mitochondria it tends to stay there for the life of the cell. You could die from mb12 deficiency symptoms and never have a result on the MMA. The main circulating form of b12 is mb12 and it also handles toxins becoming deactivated in the process and is collected by the liver. How long does it take to develop CFS/FMS from full health? The severe fatigue is most often demonstrating that lack in the mitochondria and even then if not enough mitochondria lack it then the MMA level is too low for a positive. As there is turnover in cells, adenosylb12 is released and recycled and can be converted to mb12 or parked back in another cell.

MMA detects a SEVERE deficiency state. A person can have pretty bad symptoms for years and never generate enough MMA to be significant. Lack of MMA does not mean a person doesn't have responsive symptoms.


A serum level of 287 is plenty low to develop severe symptoms of just about every kind except macrocytosis.

 

[dannybex]

Hi Danny,

I know how to get you past the problem of the 1/2mg attempt to decrease. So let me know when you want to continue the decrease. The method I use can get a little tedious and inconvienient but it doesn't run into the type of problerm you are having. You need to be down to 2.5 mg/day or less before you can do the minitaper.

Thanks Freddd,

I'll start the b12/folic acid TODAY, and work on that for a few weeks, then will definitely be in touch re your tapering method.

Dan

 

[Freddd]

Thanks Freddd,

I'll start the b12/folic acid TODAY, and work on that for a few weeks, then will definitely be in touch re your tapering method.

Dan

Hi Dan,

I hope you mean b12 and methylfolate, not folic acid.

 

[Cece]

Freddd,

Is the urine MMA test more specific than the blood MMA? I have read that the urine MMA test will show a b12 deficiency. deb

 

[Freddd]

Freddd,

Is the urine MMA test more specific than the blood MMA? I have read that the urine MMA test will show a b12 deficiency. deb

Hi Deb,

I know the urine test is preferred, but I don't know why. High uMMA will specifically show a deficiency of adb12. MMA is produced instead of ATP when the mitochondria don't function for a lack of adb12. However, things have to get pretty bad for this to show. Lack of MMA doesn't indicate sufficiency or whether the production breaks down somewhere else. It also does not show in large enough quantity to indicate a CNS deficiency of adb12 but there is some indication that cerebral spinal fluid testing for MMA could be useful. I can tell you from experience that there very definitely are malfuntions of the nervous system casued by insufficient adb12 in the spinal fluid. So uMMA can tell you if the train wreck is really bad but not useful to tell if sufficiency exists. As the CSF/CNS deficiency is a completely separate issue it doesn't detect that at all. The usefullness is that it is quite specific to adb12. In that way it is the counterpart to high Hcy for gross mb12, methylfolate or p-5-p insufficiency.

 

[keenly]

is the intrinsic b12/folate necessary?

what about the p5p 100mg?

what about iron?

cheers
paul

 

[Freddd]

is the intrinsic b12/folate necessary?

what about the p5p 100mg?

what about iron?

cheers
paul

Hi Paul,


is the intrinsic b12/folate necessary?

I don't understand what you are asking.


what about the p5p 100mg?

This can be very helpful to some people and also in smaller doses.


what about iron?

As a male, unless you have any indication of low iron from testing you probably shouldn't be taking it.

It would be very helpful to me in trying to answer questions if you were considerably more verbose with more information. Thankyou.

 

[winston]

B12

Hi Fredd, I am taking Solgar Folate 800 mcg. Last night I took it at bedtime and actually went to sleep for a few hours before needing xanax to sleep. Since starting the methlyb12 have not been able to go to sleep without help. Yesterday I upped my vit D to 3000 and will add zinc today. A little better with energy today, for me there is a difference between energy and fatigue. Saturday thru Tuesday I had energy and not as bad fatigue until I started the Solgar Folate. Please don't give up on me, I believe your protocal will work for me I just need help in finding the missing pieces.

Lena