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B-12 - The Hidden Story

F

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
Sasha said:
Amazingly, even a quarter tab of a-B12 allowed me to go out for a second time on the day I took it (normally can go out only once a day, if I'm lucky) - then 3/4 tab the next day also let me go out twice, with no PEM from the previous day; out for longer than normal the next day with 1 tab; and out for the longest walk I've had in about 9 months this morning even before my 1 tab. I hope this keeps up! No adverse symptoms yet. I'm assuming this isn't the Mg.

Two questions:

1. Should I keep upping my dose of a-B12? How will I know when I've gone too far?

2. I'm going to start on m-B12 next (the scary one) - my questions from the above post still apply. I daren't start until I know the answers!

Very pleased with what's happened so far.
Click to expand...

Hi Sasha,

Equilibrium is reached with the adb12 for most people around 3mg a day or less on the average. The startup effects of adb12 are short lived and cease being part of the mb12 startup. So I would put it this way with adb12; it has dose related effects at 1-3000mcg for most people, a discontinuity as it no longer affects the body but doesn't impact the CNS yet, and then from about 30-60mg or maybe more sublingual for the CNS.

With mb12 the dose related effectiveness is in the range 1-20,000mcg sublingual, and 30-60mg sublingually for the CNS. When another 5mg tablet of mb12 makes no discernible difference at all stop increasing. Let that sit for a couple of weeks at that dose and then try the 50mg challenge dose to test for CNS effects.

Should I keep upping my dose of a-B12? How will I know when I've gone too far?

Your whole body will permanently change to dayglo magenta!

All kidding aside though, if you actually identify any genuine symptoms of "too much" you will actually be the first to do so. I have not ever so seen any such genuine symptoms. So far thing suggested as such has been low potassium, low folate, and other missing or low items. I recently finished an experimental trial of 180mg/day injections for a couple of months. While the results are complicated, there were no symptoms of any kind caused by that except continually lurid urine.
 
S

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
Freddd said:
Hi Sasha,

Equilibrium is reached with the adb12 for most people around 3mg a day or less on the average. The startup effects of adb12 are short lived and cease being part of the mb12 startup. So I would put it this way with adb12; it has dose related effects at 1-3000mcg for most people, a discontinuity as it no longer affects the body but doesn't impact the CNS yet, and then from about 30-60mg or maybe more sublingual for the CNS.

With mb12 the dose related effectiveness is in the range 1-20,000mcg sublingual, and 30-60mg sublingually for the CNS. When another 5mg tablet of mb12 makes no discernible difference at all stop increasing. Let that sit for a couple of weeks at that dose and then try the 50mg challenge dose to test for CNS effects.

Should I keep upping my dose of a-B12? How will I know when I've gone too far?

Your whole body will permanently change to dayglo magenta!

All kidding aside though, if you actually identify any genuine symptoms of "too much" you will actually be the first to do so. I have not ever so seen any such genuine symptoms. So far thing suggested as such has been low potassium, low folate, and other missing or low items. I recently finished an experimental trial of 180mg/day injections for a couple of months. While the results are complicated, there were no symptoms of any kind caused by that except continually lurid urine.
Click to expand...

Thanks very much for this, Freddd, especially at the moment.

I'm taking Source Naturals dibencozide and my one tablet gives 8.6mg so I must be massively covered for the equilibrium dose unless I've got CNS/CFS problems. Is it possible to tell if I've got such problems from symptoms? I.e. are certain symptoms indicative of a CNS/CFS B12 deficiency as opposed to a tissue/serum deficiency? I can't get blood tests for this kind of thing here in the UK.

Sorry if I've missed a post on this - this thread is so enormous it's taking me a long time to work through it.

Pity you're kidding about going dayglo magenta - I've no objection to an entertaining symptom!
 
F

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
Sasha said:
Thanks very much for this, Freddd, especially at the moment.

I'm taking Source Naturals dibencozide and my one tablet gives 8.6mg so I must be massively covered for the equilibrium dose unless I've got CNS/CFS problems. Is it possible to tell if I've got such problems from symptoms? I.e. are certain symptoms indicative of a CNS/CFS B12 deficiency as opposed to a tissue/serum deficiency? I can't get blood tests for this kind of thing here in the UK.

Sorry if I've missed a post on this - this thread is so enormous it's taking me a long time to work through it.

Pity you're kidding about going dayglo magenta - I've no objection to an entertaining symptom!
Click to expand...


Hi Sasha,

The neurological symptoms are subtle, especially compared to body. If the body isn't at an equilibrium the body response from increased dose overwhelms the CNS effects. I am working on a spreadsheet with the various things marked as body or cns or both but that will be delayed a bit. The most noticeable effects of the 50mg CNS doses of mb12 and adb12 affect mood, psychic energy, personality, neurological effects of all kinds that are not peripheral nerves. I've known of people getting up out of a wheelchair in hours following a dose, of multisensory hallucinations stopping and of Dr Jekyll replacing Mr Hyde. I feel such a dose partly as awareness returning to numb areas from spinal degeneration. Some things happen slowly. I'm putting up the types of muscle pains I found along the way and what was the "final" things they needed for response. There is significant CNS involvement even on seemingly body things. Much of the FMS/CFS pain is being generated in the CNS. While methylfolate isn't specifically mentioned here, it helps everything. It wasn't available when I was doing this or I might have had an even stronger and faster response. Instead it was stop and go as I went into folate deficiency over and over again. There is a large group based on mitochondrial malfunction in the muscles themselves. The things listed as CNS didn't start recovering until AFTER the CNS level doses were being taken regularly. ME appears to be a pretty good example of CNS-mb12 deficiency

Methylb12 had already been on hand for 9 months prior to my starting the adb12 so the startup on that was very clearly defined and pronounced.
body - L-carnitine fumarate - adb12-burning muscle pain
body - L-carnitine fumarate - adb12-accumulating muscle pains following exertion
body - L-carnitine fumarate - adb12-sore muscles throughout body
body - L-carnitine fumarate - adb12 lack of muscle recovery after exercise
body - L-carnitine fumarate - adb12, exercise does not build muscle
body- L-carnitine fumarate, adb12- exercise deblitates for up to a week or more, making things much worse
body - L-carnitine fumarate, adb12-muscle pain especially around attachment points to bones
body & CNS - adb12- mb12 - Jarrow/Enzymatic Therapy frequent muscle spasms anywhere in body
body & CNS - L-carnitine fumarate, adb12, mb12 Eighteen severely tender muscle spots of FMS
CNS- adb12 - mb12 -Jarrow/Enzymatic Therapy extremely sore neck muscles reversing normal curvature of neck
CNS- adb12- mb12 - Jarrow/Enzymatic Therapy painfully tight, stiff muscles, especially legs and arms


My daughter and her husband were both in the 5 hypersensitive testers of various brands. She and her husband also were in the early stages of FMS/CFS/ME when we started which we were able to decrease about 90% but not stop entirely with the active b12 protocol. He has terrible unidentifiable pain and problems from hidden tooth abscesses that were just discovered the day she was killed. Sometimes the causes are not obvious so it becomes a process of peeling off the layers.

Good luck.
 
S

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
Thanks, Freddd - that's very interesting. I'll look forward to seeing your spreadsheet! I just started a thread asking if anyone was familiar with deteriorating handwriting (which I've just noticed in myself) as an ME symptom and several are pointing out that it's probably a CNS one.

I just took another adb12 sublingual (second today) an hour and a half ago and pretty much immediately revived and was able to go out again today despite rather overdoing it this morning. I know you warn about overdoing it but the temptation to escape the flat is overwhelming! I was surprised to see more effects before getting up to a CNS dose.

It really is weird to find something that has beneficial effects in minutes, not years - I haven't encountered anything like this in all my 25 years of ME. I'm just used to stuff not working!

Is it OK/sensible to keep ramping up the adb12 a tablet at a time? I'm on the Source Naturals 8.6mg.
 
maryb

maryb

iherb code TAK122
Messages
3,602
Location
UK
Freddd - so very very sorry to hear the news about your daughter and so sad for you.
 
dannybex

dannybex

Senior Member
Messages
3,564
Location
Seattle
I'm so very, very sorry to hear of this terrible tragedy Fred. My thoughts are with you and your family...

Sincerely,

Dan
 
S

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
Freddd said:
Hi Lena,

I would think that 1 3mg adb12 is entirely adequate while you start bringing mb12 on board. The balance between the two is important. With the mb12 and other factors it's effects will change. Balance is very important in all this.
Click to expand...

Continuing to plough through the thread, up to #395 and noticed this. Am I wrong to keep piling on the a-B12 without starting m-B12? I'm up to 3 x 8.6mg tabs of a-B12 already and was planning to go up to a dose that would get to the CNS.
 
F

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
Sasha said:
Continuing to plough through the thread, up to #395 and noticed this. Am I wrong to keep piling on the a-B12 without starting m-B12? I'm up to 3 x 8.6mg tabs of a-B12 already and was planning to go up to a dose that would get to the CNS.
Click to expand...

Hi Sasha,

Maximum effect for most people is reached at 3mg adb12 per day to week within several doses of 3mg or more. Mb12 is a required cofactor that is required for about half of adb12's functioning. Too much adb12 compared to mb12 can cause unpleasant mood and personality changes. Bring mb12 up to speed too. Then after the mb12 is also at a body equilibrium level is time to try the CNS dose. About 90% of all the change from active b12s will be from mb12 for most people.
 
A

aprilk1869

Senior Member
Messages
294
Location
Scotland, UK
Sasha said:
Continuing to plough through the thread, up to #395 and noticed this. Am I wrong to keep piling on the a-B12 without starting m-B12? I'm up to 3 x 8.6mg tabs of a-B12 already and was planning to go up to a dose that would get to the CNS.
Click to expand...

My understanding is that you need to be on both adb12 and mb12 for weeks or months before doing a "50mg test." I think the idea of the test is to see whether you're a candidate for injections as not everyone needs to go to those extremes.

If I were you I'd start on the mb12 ASAP. You can cut a lozenge into 4 or 6 bits and take just one bit. If everything goes fine you can move on to 2 bits the next day and so forth until you get to 4 or so bits. Then you can start taking larger bits until you reach the full lozenges.
 
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