B-12/folic acid interfering with sleep.

[CBS64]

I have tried very low doses of B12 and folic acid, taken early in the day, but every time I take it I end up waking after a few hours of sleep and not being able to fall back to sleep. I've tried hydroxo B12 and methy B12 and a couple different forms of folic acid and have had the same reaction. I've never been able to stay on the protocol for more than 4 or 5 days because I start going downhill rapidly without sleep.

I would like to know if others have experienced this side effect and if there is anything they have been able to do to eliminate it. Or if the symptom went away after a certain period of time. I have the doulbe genetic defect in the mehtylation genes, so I know it would be beneficial if I could find a way to take the protocol.

Thank you

 

[maddietod]

Have you tried injected b12? I wonder if it creates the same issues. I think even occasional injections would be helpful if you're deficient.

Also, how small is your dose? Some people here start with "a crumb" and build up to where symptoms start.

On a mostly unrelated note, Dr. Rey recently started me on a regimen of antioxidents + b12 + D, in specific ratios, to support NK function. She said if my sleep doesn't improve in 6 weeks, I have to get a neuro sleep study done...........so...........these supplements apparently help some PWCFS with sleep issues.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/might-go-to-dr-klimas-office.15715/page-7 post #124

 

[Lynn_M]

CBS64, if you have a MTHFR mutation, you do not want to take folic acid. You need a methylated folate such as metafolin. The folic acid is not metabolized and builds up in the blood.

If you have a different methylation genetic defect, I think the same advice applies, but I'm not sure.

 

[greenshots]

A while back, I went through a bad period of insomnia for about 10 days and had tried and failed a bunch of sedating herbs so asked my doc for an rx for sleep meds. I figured it would be better to get through the treatment than not, so I used sleepers on & off for about a year. You do what you gotta do.

 

[arx]

I have tried very low doses of B12 and folic acid, taken early in the day, but every time I take it I end up waking after a few hours of sleep and not being able to fall back to sleep. I've tried hydroxo B12 and methy B12 and a couple different forms of folic acid and have had the same reaction. I've never been able to stay on the protocol for more than 4 or 5 days because I start going downhill rapidly without sleep.

I would like to know if others have experienced this side effect and if there is anything they have been able to do to eliminate it. Or if the symptom went away after a certain period of time. I have the doulbe genetic defect in the mehtylation genes, so I know it would be beneficial if I could find a way to take the protocol.

Thank you

I have experienced insomnia and am still experiencing! mb12 did add to over stimulation in my head which leads to no sleep!
Someone mentioned that b12 messes with melatonin, so you can try melatonin, it does help. I've been on the protocol for 2 months now and sadly for me this symptom has not gone away. I have recently added adb12 to the protocol which is making things worse.

Check out http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/b12-and-insomnia.17904/

 

[CBS64]

Madeleine, I did take a very small dose of the B12 and methylfolate. I didn't take regular folic acid. I took injectable B12 many (15 years) years ago, but haven't tried it lately. I'm nervous about even trying this stuff anymore because if I take it for even a few days and then stop it, my sleep remains messed up for a long time. Unfortunately, I'm not able to take melatonin or sleeping pills to help counteract the sleep disturbance from the protocol. I have an appointment with my doctor tomorrow -- the one who started me on the protocol -- and I wanted to find out if others have had this type of reaction and whether it went away so that I could tell him.

When I took LDN, it caused insomnia initially, but then it actually started helping my sleep (unfortunately, it caused my adrenals to crash so I had to stop it). So I wondered if the B12/folic acid might be the same way. I've never been able to take it for more than 4 or 5 days because I would feel so awful from lack of sleep. But I'm interested to hear what other's experience has been.

 

[Crux]

Hi CBS64;

I take B12 and Folate in the morning, and zinc alone in the evening. I've been trying to find a way to have energy in the daytime and rest at night. This system is consistently working.

I've been trying to take copper alone in the morning, but it's too acidic for me, so I've been having foods high in copper because it helps fatigue.

I've been doing this for about 6mnths. I think it took a few months for my sleep to improve. Now, I'm not so anxious at bedtime. I usually take 15mgs. of zinc 1 hr. before bedtime, but sometimes more if I've taken a supplement that's too stimulating.

 

[cph13]

Madeleine, back in June I was up to 5,000mcg/folate/potassium experiencing severe insomnia. I backed off completely. In Mid July I decided just to add b-compound which contains 400mcg methly b12 and 400mcg folate. I am still severely insomniac. I also take .75 of klonepin. I get 3 hrs of sleep. I refuse to up the klonepin which will than cause extreme lethargy during the day with no sleep (aside from being deathly afraid of this mench that I can't successfully come off of). I, like many, am ready to pull my hair out. I started 5htp 50mg. It worked the first nite (I believe that was a fluke) Now up to 100mg and nothing. Can 400mcg be causing the excitatory effect?????? I need the b-compound to go along with the SamE.
Does anyone know if FREDDD is OK or is he still in the mountains???? I sure hope he's not ill. We all need his expertise here. Aside from genetic testing that Richvank recomends HAS ANYONE HAD ANY SUCCESS WITH SMP AND A SATISFATORY SLEEP REGIME??????
Sorry for all the questions. cph13

 

[greenshots]

Well, there is the possibility of going after your sympatehtic nervous system and shutting it down for the night. Gestalt is more current on this stuff but depending on how type A (or type B) you are, you would add in supplements like: Mag at higher doses (like as high as 1200 mg in a day, if necessary) and potassium but these two should be at a 3:1 ratio, with mag being highest, but only if you are more Type A, and 2:1 ratio for more middle of the road people. As I understand it, the mag blunts out the sympathetic firing and reduces the excitotoxic stuff as well. The potassium activates the parasympathetic system allowing for rest and digest activity.

Then there's a combo of GABA, thiamin/benfotimain, riboflavin, biotin, beta carotene, and more. Overall I had the best luck with the higher Mag citrate doses (3 caps in morning and 5 at night using 150mg caps) and potassium at around 300mg or so (1 am and 2 nght). And then I added the others in. See Gestalts thread about nervous system dominance because I think it explains alott about why some do just great on these methyls and others get wired but tired but can't sleep or are just plain miserable! It also explains threads like "I love B 2" since thats so good for Type A's and middle of the road types but not good at all for type B's. There is more technical language but I just haven't mastered it all yet. The good part is now that I feel so much better, I'm too busy running around with my 3 kids to research much anymore! I just know I got much better on stuff like this when adding it to the methyls and was able to finally sleep without drugs.

 

[newradost]

Angela, what type A and B are you taking about? Also Gestalt is a member of this forum maybe?

 

[greenshots]

See link
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/metabolic-diet-supplements-an-exploration.18312/

Here's my take on the different types

Type A is a common term in the US for people who are more intense, highly driven, and usually more stressed. They have more internal anxiety and like to "move mountains" they are also sympathetic nervous system types so often in "fight or flight" mode. They love competition, business, and academics and burn calories so tend to be thinner, unless they eat crappy fast foods and sweets too much. They need more fruits, vegetables, eggs, whole grain carbs and lean animal proteins (chicken breast or fish). They don't need to eat as much, esp if they eat the right foods.

Type B people are more easy going, creative, and lackadaisical (they go with the flow and get to things when they get a chance. They are parasympathetic nervous system types so are in "rest and digest" mode, storing calories and more likely to gain weight. They have depression more often and seem to be less emotional. Type B's need grass fed, fatty animal protein and potatoes and usually need to eat very regularly.

Some physician researchers (cardiologists) came up with the terms since their patients were commonly Type A and suffering from heart attacks at a higher rate than all others.

 

[triffid113]

You do not state which genetic defects you have which might help. But your name says CBS - I have 2 CBS homozygous mutations and this protocol works for me...note that it includes TMG:

DHEA (dose depends on you ... this is what I believe is what works for the CBS according to studies)
2/day Thorne Basic B (active B's)
50mg P5P
Solgar metafolin (whatever dose - as it comes)
2g TMG

I do not take any extra B12 EXCEPT during allergy season as allergies use up so much zinc that it destroys methylation, stomach acid, thyroid, and adrenal glands. So then I take 75mg zinc/day (plus 5mg copper at a different time of day to balance the zinc) and Jarrow methylcobalamin (whatever dose it comes in) - the latter due to the low stomach acid issue)

The reason I don't take extra B12 is that I tested PERFECT homocysteine even without it not during allergy season. During allergy season everything is out of whack and the above protocol only helps but is not enough...I am still working on that. My homocysteine is 10 during allergy season but should be 6.3. My heart doc does not care because apparently 10 or less is ok for the heart, but we know it is not good enough methylation to prevent other degenerative issues.

As to sleeping...I never have trouble sleeping whatever my methylation and despite having tested many times to have low serotonin (required to make melatonin), but I believe there are other hormones that help you sleep (I forget which ones but they are in abundance in an allergic person). So I never took melatnin, until I recently read an eye-opening article to the effect that melatonin is the BEST antioxidant for the brain and 200 times better than vitamin E! I rate antioxidants as NUMBER ONE in my nutrition protocol and it turns out you cannot achieve perfect methylation in conditions of oxidative stress (so this is important to everyone seeking to normalize methylation). Also Life Extension says the dose is 0-10mg (which is higher than I thought). I take 6mg every night now and I take 1 g tyrosine by day to make dopamine, which takes down inflammation, and as a result, even though I have a constant headache (since June), it is 97% muted so that I barely know it's there due to the antioxidant and anti-inflammatory strategy. (I would still ike to know the cause - it is tied to my thyroid somehow - I always get it if I take iodine, but I am taking no iodine, just augmenting my thyroid with zinc...so that now I think anything that causes my thyroid to output normally causes me a headache...sigh). Here is the article by Life Extension and I woul dsuggest you take melatonin for the MANY reasons it is good for you including helping you sleep: http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2012/sep2012_7-Ways-Melatonin-Attacks-Aging-Factors_01.htm?source=search&key=melatonin 2012

 

[greenshots]

I'm so glad you found a regimen that works! You must be referring to the heartfixer? Wouldn't your homocysteine be expected to be low with two CBS defects? They're draining the system so numbers are lower even while they build up in other places and you lack methylating capabilities. One caution is that you have to be careful on such high zinc levels cuz it shuts down glutamate receptor activity where you just want to slow it down.

Happy healing!

 

[triffid113]

I'm so glad you found a regimen that works! You must be referring to the heartfixer? Wouldn't your homocysteine be expected to be low with two CBS defects? They're draining the system so numbers are lower even while they build up in other places and you lack methylating capabilities. One caution is that you have to be careful on such high zinc levels cuz it shuts down glutamate receptor activity where you just want to slow it down.

Happy healing!

Yes according to Yasko and heartfixer BUT IT HAS NEVER BEEN TRUE FOR ME. Thus I have said time and again, there is nothing that substitutes testing. My homocysteine was HIGH before my methylation protocol and heart disease and strokes is how my family dies.

I don't know anything about glutamate receptor activity (but would like to? Can you point me to some reading?) but I already slow it down with DHEA...which protects me from glutamate toxicity (which I have bad enough to kill me w/o the DHEA). I believe it is the estrogen made by the DHEA that does it and there are studies to that effect (estrogen protects against glutamate toxicity). I believe it is the testosterone made from DHEA that lowers my homocysteine despite CBS defects (there are studies showing it does). I cannot function at al - constant panic attacks for one, w/o DHEA. The zinc allows me to breathe during allergies. They found (studies) that colds and airway allergies use up a minimum of 75mg of zinc a day to repair damage mucous membranes. I worried about copper at first but it is not used up so only a normal dose of copper is needed (and normal for females above 50 is higher than for those below 50 because estrogen helps you absorb copper...and no, despite that I am on bio hormones replacement, it appears it is not enough to reverse any of the "over 50" wisdom).