Volunteer opportunity: Organizing Phoenix Rising articles
This section contains all the articles that have been published by Phoenix Rising over the years. As you will see if you browse here, some of the articles are outdated--either the research has been superseded or retracted or the article features an event or campaign that is now in...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Are essential fatty acids 'toxic'?

Discussion in 'Alternative Therapies' started by dannybex, Nov 13, 2014.

  1. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,241
    Likes:
    2,261
    Seattle
    Ray Peat has been saying for years that they're not only not essential, but 'toxic':

    http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/fishoil.shtml

    http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/unsaturated-oils.shtml

    http://raypeat.com/articles/nutrition/oils-in-context.shtml


    He claims they're toxic to the mitochondria, they suppress immune function, and on and on. Of course many (like Mary Enig for example) have argued he cherry-picks his studies, and is wrong, but then again, he has supporters who have claimed his ideas have helped them improve their health (including those with lyme, mold toxicity, heavy metal issues, etc.).


    ???
     
  2. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,914
    Likes:
    36,693
    Logan, Queensland, Australia
    There is no question at all that there are some essential fatty acids. I think an argument they are not essential is absurd. What can be argued though is that we can go too far in promoting something as essential. For example, without arachidonic acid you die slowly, but too much arachidonic acid causes rapid and frightening death. The issue is really about where the balance lies.

    This is further complicated by us avoiding saturated fat due to the belief its dangerous (which is now disputed) and the industrial manufacture of chemically modified polyunsaturated fats for which there is considerable evidence they are toxic.

    Commonly sold cheap fish oil usually contains toxins though. Its not the essential fats that are toxic, but the other things that are not removed. Most medical research uses highly purified fish oil that is actually very hard to buy. Some fairly pure fish oil is not that hard to get these days though.

    There has also been a massive shift in the last century on the total polyunsaturated fat consumed as well as the ratio of omega-6 to omega-3 fats.

    This is an area of research in which we simply do not know enough.
     
  3. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,914
    Likes:
    36,693
    Logan, Queensland, Australia
    Ray Peat is also missing something in that third link about Eskimo diet. They live in a very cold environment. Their bodies will burn most of the fat as fuel. If we ate like that we would not do as well.
     
    merylg and dannybex like this.
  4. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,241
    Likes:
    2,261
    Seattle
    I agree Alex. I think that the problem is that there has been a shift towards the consumption of too much omega 3's and especially omega 6 fatty acids. And that's what I've read from others who partially agree with Peat. That he goes too far, but has a point when it comes to how nut and seed oil consumption (and perhaps fish oil overuse) has had a negative effect on health in general.
     
  5. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,241
    Likes:
    2,261
    Seattle
    @alex3619 -- off topic slightly, but did you ever find that research or references that you've mentioned in the past that shows that salicylates mess up delta-5 and delta-6 desaturase enzymes?
     
  6. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,914
    Likes:
    36,693
    Logan, Queensland, Australia
    Nuts and seeds, like fruit, were seasonal in pre-agricultural times. Things like shellfish I am less sure about, which contain substantive omega-3. Yet they are hard to gather by hand. What agriculture did was promote products which grew well and could be stored. It caused a massive shift in our dietary balance.
     
    merylg likes this.
  7. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,914
    Likes:
    36,693
    Logan, Queensland, Australia
    Yes, its started with a 1984 Australian paper. I think I mentioned this several times, with references. I think I can put my hands on it .... (looking) ... darn, can't put my hand on it. I think it was the Australian Medical Journal, but I could be wrong. 1984. I referenced it a few times in old blogs prior to coming to PR. Let me think on this. It might come to me where it was.
     
    dannybex likes this.
  8. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,241
    Likes:
    2,261
    Seattle

    Thanks Alex -- I would really appreciate it if you could. I've been trying to show this to my doc, which might help explain my bizarre nutreval test results from 4 years ago.

    Interestingly, Ray Peat doesn't believe there is such a thing as salicylate intolerance. But then he recommends and takes aspirin on a daily basis, so I guess that explains a lot. :)
     
  9. adreno

    adreno PR activist

    Messages:
    4,841
    Likes:
    11,074
    I don't know why anyone would listen to Ray Peat.
     
  10. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,914
    Likes:
    36,693
    Logan, Queensland, Australia
    Huh, found it!

    Medical Journal of Australia. 1984. Sept 1, special supplement. I do not have a name, or authors, I had to photocopy it at a medical library.

    Next time I have a severe salicylate reaction I will have to say to myself "Ray Peat thinks this is not real" over and over.
     
    GracieJ likes this.
  11. tolo

    tolo

    Messages:
    10
    Likes:
    1
    Sweden
    Is there a connection between essential fatty acids and salicylate intolerance?
     
  12. Snowdrop

    Snowdrop Rebel without a biscuit

    Messages:
    2,929
    Likes:
    10,182
    I have no ability to take in and remember the science I read these days. So while I can't speak as to the truth of the statement I will say that I never get sick with the colds and flu that go around (both my son and husband currently have a nastly cold bug at the moment). So if my immune system is over working suppressing it might not be a bad thing?
     
    *GG* likes this.
  13. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,914
    Likes:
    36,693
    Logan, Queensland, Australia
    Salicylate intolerance inhibits two enzymes needed to turn essential fatty acids into hormones. You then get hormone deficiency. Some of these hormones have a half life of seconds, so the reaction can be very fast.
     
    melamine likes this.
  14. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,840
    Likes:
    3,862
    There is a study about high dose fish oil to control salicylate intolerance:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18795922

    It makes sense from Ray Peat's standpoint ;)

    Considering that salicylates are mostly detoxed thru acetylation and glucuronidation, I reversed my intolerance by supplementing magnesium.
     
    dannybex likes this.
  15. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,241
    Likes:
    2,261
    Seattle
    I'm not sure I understand how it fits in w/Peat's standpoint -- he's taking aspirin with is extremely high in salicylates.

    My problem with the fish oil study is that it only treats the symptoms and doesn't address the cause(s), like as you suggest, impaired glucuronidation, etc. I'm curious how magnesium fits in with that…?


    (Peat might have a heart attack if he read that study!)
     
  16. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,241
    Likes:
    2,261
    Seattle
    It would be really great Alex if you could post some details about those enzymes when you have the 'energy'. Good to hear you found the paper! :)
     
  17. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,840
    Likes:
    3,862
    Peat doesn't believe in salicylate intolerance
    +
    Peat doesn't belive in fishoil benefits
    =
    Unbeneficial fishoil helps w/ immaginary problem :p :rofl:

    Magnesium is an important cofactor in the liver pathways
     
    garcia and dannybex like this.
  18. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,914
    Likes:
    36,693
    Logan, Queensland, Australia
    My investigation into this was mostly 14 years ago. I can get the info and post it on the molecular pathways, and cofactors. I can tell you that glutathione is needed for the desaturases to work, but I got that from an enzymology text at university which listed inhibitory factors - glutathione depletion was one of them However most of my knowledge is way out of date.

    So in someone lacking cofactors, or having genetic issues, or a damaged liver, or low in glutathione, you would expect them to be more likely to be salicylate intolerant. If you have multiple issues then you are likely to have worse salicylate intolerance. There is also indication that dysbiosis in the gut might increase risk as gut bacteria are supposed to detox salicylates.

    One factor often overlooked here is that those with ME also have increased activity of cyclooxygenase. This leads to more pro-inflammatory eicosanoids. However if we use these too much, and cannot make more due to desaturase issues, we can become depleted. We can, I think, then be in the unenviable state of not having enough and having too much at the same time, leading to whacked symptom issues.

    Oh, in case anyone is unaware, those two enzymes are delta-6- and delta-5- desaturase.
     
  19. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,840
    Likes:
    3,862
  20. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,241
    Likes:
    2,261
    Seattle
    Looking forward to it @alex3619 -- very much appreciated. :)
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page