A long winded post just because I think it's necessary to point out some things.
Hi, first here's my point
.Questions to ask
for CFS/MDD:
- Is CFS/ME often misdiagnosed as depression?
It is because doctors are either using crap diagnostic criteria, do not do a proper clinical assessment to rule out depression, and are generally un-educated related to ME, or just plain biased.
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perhaps because of parellels in clinical appearance? e.g. bedridden, decreased activity
How many illnesses result in people being bedridden or result in decreased activity. This is not a basis to suggest any kind of correlation.
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Is there an exceptionally high level of suffering amongst severe cases ?
You can ask that of all severe diseases and conditions. This is not a basis to suggest any kind of correlation.
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Does suicidality sadly often occur as a result ?
Again, those who suffer from any kind of chronic illness that entails ongoing pain and misery often consider suicide or the way to end the suffering.
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Are there limitations in social interaction, school, careers and personal life?
This is often the case with many chronic illnesses. This is not a basis to suggest any kind of correlation.
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Is the general activity level lower?
This is the case with many chronic illnesses. This is not a basis to suggest any kind of correlation.
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Does it cause a high toll on family and carers?
This is the case with many chronic illnesses. This is not a basis to suggest any kind of correlation.
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Is there a relevant subgroup that has both diseases?
Not sure of the meaning here. Is there a subgroup of people with ME that suffer depression and subgroup of people with depression that suffere from ME. Of course but that means nothing. The likelihood of suffering depression with any chronic illness is a reality. There are people out there with Cancer that suffer from depression, it doesn't mean the two are clinically related. This is not a basis to suggest any kind of correlation.
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Could this group benefit from looking closer into MDD research too? Obviously.
Why? Major depressive disorder is a distinct clinical entity from ME/CFS. Would you research leukemia patients to get answers about ME/CFS just because they share a few of the same symptoms. This is not a basis to suggest any kind of correlation.
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Could the depressed possibly benefit from CFS research on the other hand?
Would you ask this related to all the chronic illnesses that have overlapping symptoms. Would people with diabetes, Cancer, Rheumatoid arthritis etc benefit from CFS research? Who knows -- but they all enjoy being treated as distinct clinical entities.
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Is it a complex, multidimensional, heterogenic and. still after all the research, so poorly understood disease?
Just because depression and ME/CFS are poorly understood, doesn't mean they are related in some manner.
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Do the patients often get stigmatized, met with misunderstanding and prejudices?
Yes they do, but so do people with Autism, Schizophrenia, HIV/AIDS. This is not a basis to suggest any kind of correlation.
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Are neurotransmitter levels relevant also mitochondria?
Neurotransmitter levels are relevant in many disorders -- schizophrenia, Huntington's, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, Autism, Seizure disorders, Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis (ALS), to name a few. This is not a basis to suggest any kind of correlation.
As far as mitochondria go, I am aware of the research that suggests stress-related depression might be correlated with an increase in the amount of mitochondrial DNA and changes in telomere length. Therefore, a measurable sign perhaps of depression. Not a cause though, result. Mitochondria is involved in energy production, so it would make sense that the fatigue in any illness is related to the physiological stress on the dna from having a disease. This is not a basis to suggest any kind of correlation.
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Does genetic variation play a role?
Genetic varation plays a role in all disease/conditions. This is not a basis to suggest any kind of correlation.
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Methylaton and oxidative stress ?
What about them -- both could be tied in to many diseases and conditions. This is not a basis to suggest any kind of correlation.
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Do viral/bacterial/parasitic infections influence the disease?
Infection has an influence on all disease by making the disease symptoms worse -- both objectively and subjectively. This is not a basis to suggest any kind of correlation.
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Is the endocrine system out of whack? (thyroid, adrenals, sex hormones, insulin)
I have worked with many people with severe MDD -- hospitalized. The hospital I worked at did routine assessments for hormonal issues. There were very few patients that had any kind of 'out of whack' hormonal issues. Sometimes, people came back with abnormal thyroid levels but fixing that did not fix their depression, therefore suggesting not a cause but maybe a small contributor or co-existing condition. I know of many people with ME who have fixed their hormonal issues with the end result of having improvement of some symptoms but no improvement of distinct ME associated symptoms like PEM/PENE. Many diseases actually cause abnormalities in some part of the endocrine system. Disease has an effect on the endocrine system.
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Is the cardiovascular system affected?
Many diseases can affect the cardiovascular system.
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Is the brain and/or cns affected in various ways?
Many diseases affect the brain which is part of the Central Nervous System.
Many diseases have pain as a symptom.
Sleep is affected in many diseases.
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Do patients often put years and years of their life into looking to finally get cured?
ME/CFS are forced to do this due lack of research, lack of known cause, lack of proper medical care etc. and being told they are suffering from depression.
I actually believe MDD patients do not do this when then are depressed -- why -- because MDD is a thought disorder characterized by a distorted view of life in which a negative attitude makes it difficult for them to imagine how problems or situations may be resolved in a positive way. Most MDD patients I knew, just didn't care while those with ME/CFS care a great deal. I am not saying MDD is a psychological disorder -- I am saying the underlying basis is physiological with the accompanying thought disorder being a symptom of the physiological abnormalities which unfortunately makes it difficult for these patients to proactively search for answers as many ME patients seem to do.
So again, ME/CFS patients are very pro-active and interested in getting better and this is a glaring and distinct difference from people who suffer from MDD.
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And often get disappointed in professionals not able to help?
How do you think a Cancer patient feels whe a professional is not able to help because a the cancer is too far gone? How do you think an insulin dependent diabetic feels when a doctor can't offer anything other than insulin? How do you think an Alzheimer's patient feels?
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Weight changes, appetite changes, digestive problems?
This occurs with many diseases/conditions. This is not a basis to suggest any kind of correlation.
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Does physical activity, psychotherapy and do antidepressants any good?
Physical activity supposedly helps people with depression, it harms those with ME related to PEM if a fine line is crossed. Psychotherapy only helps people if they want it to help and it helps them cope with being ill. Antidepressants probably only help a small group of MDD patients -- who knows -- there is a lot of conflicting research about that. Most with ME can't cope with them as they seem to exacerbate issues.
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Is it a disease with mental/psychological struggle including lowered mood, anxiousness, emptiness, hopelessnes, helplessnes, worthlessnes, guiltiness, irritablility?
This is depression you are describing, not ME/CFS. Being a human means you are probably going to experience those things even if you are physically healthy at some point in your life. If a person with ME has all those symptoms they are likely suffering from some kind of co-existing anxiety and/or depression. This is not a basis to suggest any kind of correlation.
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Does OI? tachycardia? PEM? Occur?
PEM is what separates ME/CFS from the rest of the diseases. I have never met a patient with MDD that suffered from PEM and if they did have PEM, I would suspect depression as a co-existing diagnosis.
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Is it a psychiatric disease?
What is a 'psychiatric' disease. That is a useless stigmatizing label. Depression is a physiological disease in its own right where the major symptom is negative thinking. Psychiatric diseases exist so psychiatrists have something to do with all the psychobabble they have manufactured. Both depression and ME/CFS should be treated as serious physiological disorders with research aimed at the physiological causes/treatments of both. They also need to be treated as separate illnesses because that's what they are.
No. Absolutely not. The problem with this question is that if one believes they are the same disease then one has to ignore the distinct clinical features of each and focus on the similarities which are fatigue, pain in some cases, disturbed sleep.
This simply is a faulty argument based on analogy:
MDD has the symptoms of fatigue, pain, sleep disorders, suggested issues with neurotransmitters, oxidation, mitichondria, methylation.
ME/CFS has the symptoms of fatigue, pain, sleep disorders, suggested issues with neurotransmitters, oxidation, mitichondria, methylation.
Conclusion: MDD and ME/CFS must be the same disorders because the symptoms that make them distinct diseases are totally being ignored.
Is this argument acceptable -- no because they are distinct disorders -- MDD does not involve PEM and many other associated autonomic symptoms. If we conclude they are the same, then we must add many other diseases and designate them the same disease. Cancer is the same disease as ME and depression because cancer has fatigue, pain, sleep issues, mitochondrial, hormonal issues in common. Same goes for other diseases.
Do professionals break the hiipocratic oath if they misdiagnose and mistreat? No question.
In some cases they do, some they don't. That applies to all diseases and how well the doctor diagnoses and treats the disease. This is not a basis to suggest any kind of correlation between MDD and ME/CFS.
I'm just trying to clarify on my personal view and a few Qs to ask as there are clear differences aswell as legitimate comon features of CFS and MDD IMO.
To be gentle, I personally believe a lot of your views regarding MDD and ME/CFS are based on a cognitive bias where you are saying that there are 'legitimate common features'. Are they legitimate common features because as I have just pointed out in a very lengthy and no doubt boring and repetitive manner that these similarities are present in many many diseases/conditions -- how are they less legitimate or more legitimate in conditions other than ME/CFS. You have decided there are legitimate correlations -- where does that even come from. I have yet to see any reasoning other than MDD and ME/CFS share a few of the same symptoms -- this in no way suggests 'legitimate correlation'.
Most of your posts until now are counter productive and repetitive if you noticed. You including a couple of members desperately trying to shut down a discussion throughout in any way possible with personal attacks, off topic and finally resorting to embarrassing labelling like this new ridiculous term "Anti -ME talk" I never ever heard before; it's pathetic.
Thanks to the mods who kept it clean.
That's probably because members are trying to constructively tell you, in most cases, why your argument is problematic. I don't think members are doing anything other than trying to educate others, at this point, that the two are not even close to being similar diseases. It's not pathetic to not want to be misdiagnosed or labelled with a disorder you don't have just because of a few similar symptoms. It's not pathetic to want ME/CFS to be seriously treated as a disease in it's own right rather than to be thrown in with another illness.
How many times have you heard on this forum that somebody just got told -- 'You are just depressed'. This is wrong and insulting and really what you have done on this thread is probably virtually slapped all these members that have had to put up with this kind of crap because doctors don't know the criteria for ME, or they don't believe in ME/CFS or they are just too lazy to do any testing.
One reason why I initiated this thread was because I saw a correlation between sufferers of ME and depression. Now what I'm looking for is a causal link between the two diseases and any impact they may have on one another. If you'll argue that this is irrelevant to science, not only will I stop arguing with you, but this whole page may as well be shut down.
And I have pointed out similarities between ME, Depression and many many other illnesses. So why don't you look for a causal link between all these other diseases and depression. Depression is a disease in it's own right -- has it's own diagnostic criteria, it's own set of signs and symptoms -- just like every other disease on this planet. Just because you see a correlation between a few symptoms doesn't mean the two are related in any manner other than they share a few of the same symptoms.
Again --
Okay, I am finally finished.
