Anyone tried Limbic Retraining: Dynamic Neural Retraining System?

[Gingergrrl]

And with the histamine intolerance, the whole thing about safe foods and unsafe foods, I have had a lot of self-talk about "that food's not safe for me". And it may be a lack of faith, but I have a hard time with the concept of a "benevolent universe". God yes; nature, which I love for itself and it's marvels, not so trustworthy.

I'm hoping this comment will be helpful and not offensive to anyone but for someone with MCAS in an acute episode like I was last summer, there absolutely are "safe foods" and unsafe foods" (and this will vary from person to person of course).

I hope this is helpful and that no one doing these programs (Gupta, Hopper, etc) would attempt to eat a food that was unsafe for them thinking it was due to a lack of faith in God or in the program.

Just my two cents!

 

[Critterina]

@Gingergrrl ,

Smiles! I see where you went with what I said, but I didn't mean those things to be together - that if you had faith in God all foods would be safe. Probably better to PM me if you want to talk religion.

No, what I meant was that the limbic system that seems to want to be reprogrammed through DNR seems to like the feeling of being safe. In that regard my self-talk about unsafe foods is probably not helpful to the limbic system, although not as big a problem as actually eating them is to the rest of my body! Same with my feeling that the universe is not a safe place - probably not helpful for the limbic system. It was only a few years ago that "belief in a benevolent universe" caught my attention as a (supposed) sign of faith. That's how that stuff was supposed to be tied together: not helpful for healthy limbic system.

Thanks for calling me on the confusing things I said. I'm happy to edit or delete that prior post if you think someone might endanger themselves after reading what I said. I know we all are meant to take responsibility for our actions on this site, and if leaving the post is irresponsible, I'll change/remove it.

 

[Gingergrrl]

Smiles! I see where you went with what I said, but I didn't mean those things to be together - that if you had faith in God all foods would be safe. Probably better to PM me if you want to talk religion.

Thanks for explaining and it wasn't so much that I thought you believed those things versus that I was not sure what these trainings (Gupta and Hopper) are promoting. I was curious from your comment if they were saying that if someone followed their plan or believed hard enough in their ideas that all foods would become "safe foods" which to me would be harmful. But they may not be saying that at all. And if they were, I was not sure if it was connecting it to a believe in God/higher power or to more of a self-empowerment thing.

No, what I meant was that the limbic system that seems to want to be reprogrammed through DNR seems to like the feeling of being safe.

That makes sense and the feeling of being safe is definitely something that (I think!) we all strive for. I was just curious how they went about it.

Thanks for calling me on the confusing things I said. I'm happy to edit or delete that prior post if you think someone might endanger themselves after reading what I said. I know we all are meant to take responsibility for our actions on this site, and if leaving the post is irresponsible, I'll change/remove it.

I definitely didn't mean it as "calling you out" or that you need to change your post! It just caught my eye re: safe and unsafe foods b/c for someone with MCAS or severe food allergies, it could be fatal if they were taught that if they just believed hard enough (in the program or in anything) that they could overpower them. But the program might not be saying that at all and I might have misinterpreted it.

 

[Critterina]

@Gingergrrl ,

From what I read this afternoon, the DNR retrains the limbic system that has been stuck in a fight-or-flight mode, incorrectly interpreting normal things as dangerous. You teach your brain to react differently, but part of that means spending time practicing not to respond with fear/stress/anxiety. And it's not that you shouldn't be afraid of dangerous things, but the idea seems to be that we have this fear/stress/anxiety response inappropriately (for example, my response to mentholated lip balm - not on me, but on someone in my office - that felt like they were throwing darts at me.)

So that whole paragraph where things got confused was about fear and fear responses. In that regard my self-talk about unsafe foods was not so much about whether or not the food was safe, but what I was choosing to dwell on. Although for the times I forgot the obvious (like calamari is seafood!) the reminders are practical.

Here is a link to the program that describes what they are about. https://retrainingthebrain.com/how-the-program-works/

 

[Gingergrrl]

(for example, my response to mentholated lip balm - not on me, but on someone in my office - that felt like they were throwing darts at me.)

But couldn't this be part of MCAS or MCS and an actual reaction to the chemical in the menthol? I had reactions to paint and VOC's that were near anaphylaxis and they were purely physical. I was telling myself that I could tolerate the smells and it would be okay but I was not able to last for ten minutes.

In that regard my self-talk about unsafe foods was not so much about whether or not the food was safe, but what I was choosing to dwell on.

I guess it is just a different perspective b/c for me when my MCAS was really had, the food truly was safe or unsafe and it had nothing to do with me dwelling on it. I actually reached a point of acceptance (although quite difficult) that I just could not eat food at that time. Now I am back in a remission period (I believe from IVIG) so knowing if a food is safe or unsafe is more uncharted territory and I try new foods every day.

Here is a link to the program that describes what they are about. https://retrainingthebrain.com/how-the-program-works/

Thanks and I appreciate it! I didn't mean to go off topic but was just concerned if someone had MCAS or MCS and tried to talk or think themselves out of it, the consequences could be very dangerous. My MCAS doc said the number one thing is to avoid the trigger in the first place (if it is a known trigger which it may not be). But I will definitely look at the program so I am not judging it unfairly without understanding what it is actually teaching. I guess I want to make sure it is not like "false illness beliefs" that I read about in the UK threads.

 

[Critterina]

But couldn't this be part of MCAS or MCS and an actual reaction to the chemical in the menthol? I had reactions to paint and VOC's that were near anaphylaxis and they were purely physical. I was telling myself that I could tolerate the smells and it would be okay but I was not able to last for ten minutes.

Well, it couldn't be part of MCAS because I flunk every test for MCAS. It could be part of MCS, but DNR has nothing to do with what you tell yourself about whether you're sensitive to something.
I have no idea what "near anaphylaxis" is. I survived an anaphylactic response once; I was lucky. My throat swelled closed. But since then, when I am offered a beer, I weigh the options: beer, breathing, beer, breathing...with my hands going up and down like two sides of a scale. In the end I always say "Beer is good, but I'm addicted to breathing."

I guess it is just a different perspective b/c for me when my MCAS was really had, the food truly was safe or unsafe and it had nothing to do with me dwelling on it. I actually reached a point of acceptance (although quite difficult) that I just could not eat food at that time. Now I am back in a remission period (I believe from IVIG) so knowing if a food is safe or unsafe is more uncharted territory and I try new foods every day.

Yes, these comments tell me you're still missing the point. I'm glad you're better, though.

Thanks and I appreciate it! I didn't mean to go off topic but was just concerned if someone had MCAS or MCS and tried to talk or think themselves out of it, the consequences could be very dangerous. My MCAS doc said the number one thing is to avoid the trigger in the first place (if it is a known trigger which it may not be). But I will definitely look at the program so I am not judging it unfairly without understanding what it is actually teaching. I guess I want to make sure it is not like "false illness beliefs" that I read about in the UK threads.

Yes, that is a misunderstanding of what I was talking about, which is "FEAR" as a way of life and the brain plasticity that results in an over-developed tendency to interpret things and situations as dangerous. Telling yourself a food is safe does not rewire your brain, and if it's not safe and you eat it and live, it might only make the limbic system worse, since you're smart enough to know that you're lying to yourself.

 

[Gingergrrl]

@Critterina Your post above is challenging for me to follow b/c I can't tell which parts are in quote boxes vs. your words. I will try my best to answer.

When I said "near anaphylaxis" I am going by established medical charts that break ANA into four stages and that I was in stage 1-2 (dangerous but not going to kill you) from just being exposed to a smell that was a trigger for me (like paint or VOC's, etc).

I am not sure what you meant re: that I am "still missing the point." I am not familiar with DNRS or Gupta and have never done the training and said this straight out. My only concern was that for people with either MCAS or IgE mediated allergies, there really are safe vs. unsafe foods and avoiding the unsafe foods is critical to stay alive!

At present for me, my doctor is wanting me to test out new foods b/c I have had an incredible improvement from IVIG in this area. I do not try anything we know is risky (like meat or fruit that is old or is not fresh or frozen b/c the histamine build up is too high) and I do not try anything with known dyes or preservatives that I react to. But with regular "new" foods, I am trying them per my doctor b/c it is the only way to see if I tolerate them now. It's not about fear or lying to myself, it's just figuring out what my immune system post IVIG can tolerate. It's never about trying to trick myself, it's just uncharted territory like yesterday trying IVIG for the first time without steroids. We knew it was potentially high risk but we felt it was worth the risk and it turned out that it was.

Am afraid of taking this thread off topic so I will bow out since I think without me knowing the DNRS or Gupta training, I am just guessing what it means. It was just one statement that concerned me could be dangerous for people with MCAS/food allergies but I think each person will decide on their own if the training is for them or not.

 

[Critterina]

I put the quotes in correctly, so now it looks right. Thanks for letting me know. Feel free to revise your response if the lack of quotation marks made my meaning obscure.

 

[char47]

Hi all,
I've considered these Amygdala/limbic retraining programs as i think they could be beneficial even if not curative, but I've never tried them because my issues seem to be the opposite to the theories i read about. - It's like my problem is the amygdala switching off or something instead of being stuck in fight/flight.

I feel so much better when I'm anxious/afraid/angry. I feel at my most ill physically when I'm relaxed & calm.
But when i feel angry, boy i feel almost well, ALL my symptoms lessen it's almost miraculous, adrenaline is a wonderful drug, but of course if I behave according to how i feel, & do what my body tells me i can in that moment, the PEM is horrific afterwards... But the PEM doesnt kick in until I'm calm again.
I do meditate regularly, using Andrew Johnson's tracks, but i often find it makes me feel physically worse even though i feel psychologically better for it.

Interestinbg to read other's thoughts.
Its all very intriguing

 

[Critterina]

Hi everyone,

I bought the DVDs for the DNRS from retrainingthebrain.com (the website URL changed recently). I did them sincerely and have been practicing an hour a day since and plan to go for the 180 days of practice to complete the rewiring. The practice is not difficult unless my mind wanders, but I do my best each day. Doing it earlier than bedtime seems to help entirely with the mind wandering.

I have to say that I was about 70% or more recovered before I started, and that is from histamine intolerance, multiple chemical sensitivities, and I am naming in my practice adrenal insufficiency and allergy as also resulting from brain miswiring - because it costs nothing and if it helps, great.

There have been noticeable improvements. Even at 12 days, I'm glad I spent the money and effort. I do believe that my brain has been interpreting things as life-threatening and acting accordingly to protect my life. But cat dander, chapstick, and dietary histamines are not, under normal circumstances, life threatening. The problem was not with their existence, but with my reaction to them. I'm using her method to retrain my brain and giving it an honest effort.

Some things I notices were: I am able to stop my thoughts about how these things making me ill. Practicing the steps, I have seen the beginnings of a reaction subside. Coffee, even flavored coffee, tastes better and things smell better in general. I visited a friend and three of her cats came over to say high, one sat in my lap, and I had no reaction. I didn't even remember to change my clothes when I got home. I have had a much lower reaction to dietary histamines and yesterday had a sandwich with tomato slices - more than 10 times what would have made me sick for three days in 2013 - and three hours later I was still breathing freely. I did have problems overnight - was the reaction at 15 hours due to the dietary histamines or something else, like my filthy house? Can't tell. I didn't get up and do the practice - I got up and used meds. Good enough for me at this point. I'm hoping to keep improving over the next 5.5 months.

 

[Daffodil]

@Dufresne I have only read a little bit of this thread but was interested in your saying that calming your brain led you into a depression. I had similar experience once with transcendental meditation. In fact, I ended up in a psych ward.

A psychiatrist once told me that one should not practice without therapist's support etc. I have also since read that for some, it can increase isolation and depression. Perhaps accesses memories/thoughts one is not ready for?

My mother has always claimed my uncle became schizophrenic due to excessive meditation!

Anyway, even though I recognize that it is very calming and feels good, I am scared to go further with it...which is unfortunate.


DAff

 

[Critterina]

Just an update. On December 7, I walked my head into a tree. Hard. I was unable to continue this training. I think I can do it now, but I'm being inconsistent. Monday was a great day - no pain and lots of energy. Of course, I had just fasted for histamine intolerance from Thurs-Sun nights, so little inflammation and my body was rejoicing with food again. I'll update this as I get back into it.

 

[Dufresne]

@Dufresne I have only read a little bit of this thread but was interested in your saying that calming your brain led you into a depression. I had similar experience once with transcendental meditation. In fact, I ended up in a psych ward.

A psychiatrist once told me that one should not practice without therapist's support etc. I have also since read that for some, it can increase isolation and depression. Perhaps accesses memories/thoughts one is not ready for?

My mother has always claimed my uncle became schizophrenic due to excessive meditation!

Anyway, even though I recognize that it is very calming and feels good, I am scared to go further with it...which is unfortunate.

DAff

A lot of people notice it’s easier to find words when they’ve been meditating, that they experience greater creativity and a clearer head; things people with ME/CFS tend to have a problem with. So while meditation may be relaxing I think it can involve a higher energy state. And pushing an ME/CFS brain into this higher state stresses it beyond what it can sustain. As a result it pushes back along the same channels.

For instance I've found many antidepressant therapies eventually lead to depression. "Energy medicine" like reiki, acupuncture, and such has always come around to bite me. It feels great for a few days and then the disease compensation kicks in and it goes to crap. The exception has been Qigong.

 

[Daffodil]

@Dufresne honestly, I think for me it might have just brought back memories I wasn't ready for. I cannot really name the memories though, which is weird. its like I was suddenly hyper aware of how awful my life had been and was. like a hyper awareness. it was scary

 

[Critterina]

I'm still away from my practice of the neural retraining. It helped a lot with some allergies, but since histamine intolerance is based on an enzyme deficiency, I'm wondering if it's too much to hope for - like trying to get over lactose intolerance by reprogramming your brain. Still, I think it is worth a try.

@Daffodil, I totally get that - being hyper aware of how far my life has been, and to some extent still is, away from those happy memories that I rehearse in my practice to stimulate healthy neurobiology. It can be depressing, for sure, but it can also help me recognize that I can make better choices in terms of scheduling good things in my life to the extent possible.

 

[poohsilk]

Thanks all for these comments which I read in my researching DNR. I think I will go ahead and get the DVD program of Hopper because we (two of us) need a lift out of the never ending downward spiral of our thinking due to illness (Lyme, mold). Now that I, again, think it is the hidden mold in the house we are in, I find I am in a high stress, high alert mode.

 

[Critterina]

@poohsilk , I wish you the best. I'm still having what might be post-concussion effects, so not back on it yet. But I am recognizing good neurobiology as it happens in my life, and that's a big part of it.

 

[sflorence]

Looking to get my hands on some of these DVDs, but don't have the funds currently.

Does anyone have an old set? Or a link to a torrent?

Thanks

 

[poohsilk]

florence

Looking to get my hands on some of these DVDs, but don't have the funds currently.

Does anyone have an old set? Or a link to a torrent?

Thanks

I am in my 5th month of the Gupta Programme so not yet but in the future i will gladly pass it along.
It has helped tremendously. I have seen benefits to my health and mind and moods for the first time in years (30 odd years). So I am doing the daily exercises more now, which I didn't start to do completely until about 3 months in. The added webinars kept me very busy working on conditioned behaviors before I even started working on Mold and other sensitivities. So, yes, you can train the brain to change. it does not mean your illness was emotional or that you brought it on. It is about your brain having got stuck in the pattern.

 

[sflorence]

florence

I am in my 5th month of the Gupta Programme so not yet but in the future i will gladly pass it along.
It has helped tremendously. I have seen benefits to my health and mind and moods for the first time in years (30 odd years). So I am doing the daily exercises more now, which I didn't start to do completely until about 3 months in. The added webinars kept me very busy working on conditioned behaviors before I even started working on Mold and other sensitivities. So, yes, you can train the brain to change. it does not mean your illness was emotional or that you brought it on. It is about your brain having got stuck in the pattern.

Awesome! I am so glad for you.

There actually exists a torrent for the Gupta programme that is free, albeit illegal. I am looking for DNRS, more focused towards MCS which I think is the root of my CFS.

Thanks!