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Any experience exercise (aerobic) vs lifting

Discussion in 'Post-Exertional Malaise, Fatigue, and Crashes' started by .jm., Apr 18, 2018.

  1. .jm.

    .jm.

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    Does anyone have any first hand experience with post exercise fatigue after strenuous exercise (basically anything aerobic) vs lifting?
     
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  2. Bansaw

    Bansaw Senior Member

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    Aerobic - if I do 15 mins I am OK. Anything above that and I tend to struggle with heart palps and fatigue afterwards.
    Lifting heavy stuff can only be a few minutes and for days after I ache all over and feel fatigue.

    However, I find that if I do the same weights (I have 35lb dumbells) week after week then my body seems to get attuned to them. I do bench press, pullovers etc. These produce no PEM now. My body gets used to them but if I do something "different" then I feel it next day.

    Something which has helped me is bicarbonate of soda (fith of a teaspoon in water) straight after exercise with a few teaspoons of salt water (sole water). This seems to nullify to some degree the amount of lactic acid which has been released. (Some say ammonia, many like me say lactic).
     
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  3. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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    I've been lifting weights just fine 5-6 days a week throughout this illness.

    Doing any kind of aerobic exercise provokes PEM. BCAAs, glutathione, citrulline, ornithine each have been helpful in beating PEM.
     
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  4. Dechi

    Dechi Senior Member

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    This is highly unusual. I was wondering where you fit on the light/severe scale ? Are you capable of working full time ?
     
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  5. Murph

    Murph :)

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    I can do some *types* of aerobic exercise, where they come with repeated rests.

    For example, a walk down a city street where I often stand still to wait for traffic lights. I do much worse at aerobic exercise that is consistent, e.g. a walk in the country.

    I have at times in this illness when I have been particularly mild ,been able to play games of sports that allow you to run in fits and starts, but never been able to do endurance exercise like jogging, without rests.

    All of these things go better in cold weather, go better with ample hydration, and go better with compression stockings on. I always take whey protein aferward and rest too, so I can recover promptly and avoid PEM. (I also take paracetamol before any aerobic endeavour, but nobody else seems to get any benefit from that!)

    I'm worse at strength for sure. But I find certain muscle groups I can exercise where I get very little PEM, and some where I have to be very careful and it is easy to overdo it. For me, certain types of arm exercises seem to pose a big problem - Perhaps because my arms are poorly conditioned? I don't know. I also seem to do badly on anything where I tense my whole body and it feels like veins are pounding in my head. That kind of blood pressure raise is really bad for me.
     
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  6. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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    I was in good physical shape when I got sick and I have seen what deconditioning does to patients. To me, its a survival strategy to exercise, and it promotes mitochondrial biogenesis, e.g. more mitochondria to make energy, plus brain derived neurotropic factor, and other things that are beneficial.

    I've lifted weights for over 30 years and know what I am doing. I am careful and work within my energy envelope, and my workouts have included 3-4 naps on the gym floor, stopping when I got dizzy and crashed. I was able to lift weights during the period I was sleeping 16 hours a day.

    At this point, though I've improved a lot, I'm still about 70-75% of normal. I am not capable of working full time - I work 12-20 hours a week, mostly less than 5 hours on any one day. If I work more, I get PEM.

    I've found that though I've gotten stronger, its pretty impossible to set any goals. Its better if I just do the best job I can given how I feel on any day, and I don't exercise if I feel slammed... I listen to my body and exercise at about 80% of what I think my limit is.
     
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  7. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    Its great you are at least able to move weights and keep muscles strong and conditioned. I had similar challenges with my Lyme disease issues. I can lift weights no problem. Don't do anything much above 70 percent effort on sets, because I dont want to damage joints and tendons with excessive weight while my body is dealing with infection, cardio however as in jogging or running long distances is much challenging then it should. I have just stuck to going on walks and the weight training for exercise.

    For lyme and other illnesses that are similar I read somewhere that aerobic capacity is greatly inhibited, and also too much cardio can make people feel worse. And that weight lifting can help oxygenize tissue and help to clear infections. This stuff really only applies when someone gets to the point they are well enough to do all that though. There is calisthenic exercises one can do even in bed, to avoid de conditioning as much as manageable. So it doesn't have to be heavy dumbbells and exercise equipment. I mention Lyme because its where most my knowledge is based.
     
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  8. Dechi

    Dechi Senior Member

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    I was in very good shape too and had been weight lifting for years. The first year I still went to the gym, but I was getting worse while trying to train (even though I followed a specific protocol and was very careful). I was very dizzy and shaky and had to lie down on the floor after every set. I still lift weight, but very little, in bouts of 15 seconds. In the hope of not losing all muscle mass.

    I’m glad you can do it though, it must feel good, even though it feels bad, lol !
     
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  9. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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    I think any exercise we can get is beneficial, even if broken down into small increments. The biggest issue is being limited by feeling drained of energy - I can't work out enough to be out of breath or sweat at the time, or be sore the next day.

    The dizzy part has improved with treating my POTS with propranolol and Mestinon. I also take creatinine, BCAAs, glutathione, NAD+, and hydrocortisone which help my body cope in different ways.

    Best of luck to you!
     
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  10. .jm.

    .jm.

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    Interesting. I keep saying that I'm going to start lifting. I use to run 90-100 miles per week, and even back in November when I was out in Germany for work, I could still suck it up and do a leisurely hour-ish of running in the mornings -- in freezing rain (with stimulants). I was in the base mileage range of 60-70 miles per week when this onset about a year ago. It would be interesting to see if the virus basically only infected my leg muscles. I went for a short bike ride last week because the weather was really nice, but just being on a road bike makes it easy to overdo it, and I feel pretty wiped out this week. So, even when I don't particularly overdo it, the general fatigue seems to come days later and persist around for a while.

    I also wonder if it is just the muscles that I use to abuse that are infected with the virus. Maybe swimming with a pull buoy would work-- It wilt will have to go on my list of things to try.

    Dr. Chia has an example of a boy who gets sick in high school. Then goes to college and decides he wants to start playing basketball again. Gets really sick from overdoing it, his body cleared the virus, and it never came back.
     
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  11. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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    Mmaybe not the infection, but mitochondrial dysfunction in Complex I, hypoxia, and/or oxidative and nitrosative stress may contribute. And lack of amino acids, as glycolysis may be impaired.
     
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  12. .jm.

    .jm.

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    But these causes wouldn't onset suddenly, would they. Less Last november and december -- a year and a few months ago -- I was still in top athletic shape.
    (suddenly is over the course of a few months)
     
  13. Dakota15

    Dakota15 Senior Member

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    I don't know why it is, but I can do light lifting / cardio / and biking for the most part just fine, about 4-5 times a week. I really don't feel anything different after it. I actually feel better when I'm doing those things then when I don't.

    However, when I try to exert anything cognitive-related (such as working) it is indefinitely more difficult or troublesome. Physical activities are a walk in the park compared to anything cognitive for me...information processing, reading, speeches, etc. And when I exert cognitively, the fatigue sets in immediately.
     
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  14. Wishful

    Wishful Senior Member

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    The difference seems to be how much the activity damages the muscles, resulting in t-cell activation. I can hike or bike for hours without triggering PEM, since I've always been doing long walks and rides. Climbing a ladder a few times strains those muscles beyond their normal range, which triggers PEM. I expect that any leg activity beyond the usual for walking/riding would also trigger PEM. I can also dig soil for hours without triggering PEM if I limit myself to the 'standard' motions. A few minutes of using my arm muscles in non-standard ways will trigger PEM. I'm convinced that it's the tissue-damaging and resultant immune system activity that triggers PEM, not the exertion (mito effort).

    For those lifting without PEM: are you able to do muscle-building lifting (causes tissue damage) without triggering PEM, or is it just muscle-maintaining lifting that doesn't cause PEM?

    For those who haven't encountered my thread ( http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/possible-pem-blocker.56232/ ) yet, I came across something that very effectively blocks physically-triggered PEM for me: cumin (regular, not black). A level tsp blocks my PEM symptoms completely for three days, allowing me to do strenuous physical activities that would otherwise trigger PEM. It doesn't work on the increase in symptoms triggered by cognitive activities.

    Only a couple of people so far have reported trying cumin, and reported positive but indefinite results. If you're avoiding exercise because of PEM, you might give it a try. It's cheap, safe, and doesn't require a prescription. It was an accidental discovery, but it's greatly improved my quality of life. If it works for you, please report back so that others can benefit too.
     
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  15. Dakota15

    Dakota15 Senior Member

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    Thanks for passing along @Wishful

    Can I ask what brand name of cumin you buy / use? I'm interested in trying myself.

    Best,
    Dakota
     
  16. Wishful

    Wishful Senior Member

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    I'm using no-name plastic bag of ground cumin. I've used bulk cumin too. Perilla might work, since it also has cuminaldehyde, but I haven't found a convenient source locally.
     
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  17. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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    Yes, they could. Depends on what else is going on with infections, nutrient depletion, toxicity, stress, trauma, microbiome, prescription drugs, development of autoimmunity, tick bites, etc.
    Yes. PEM triggering seems to occur for me when using up all the oxygen in my muscles with aerobic activity or intense activity.
    Glad it works for you. However, I have read your many posts, have tried it, and found its done nothing for my PEM.

    What helps is:

    1) 3-6g of branched chain amino acids, especially medicine and someone, found in numerous studies to reduce fatigued in athletes

    2) 1-2g of reduced glutathione, which reduces oxidative stress from ROS created by mitochondria making ATP

    3) HBOT, which reduces hypoxia

    4) 3-5g each of citrulline and ornithine which supports nitric oxide which I seem to lose during exercise.
     
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  18. AdamS

    AdamS Senior Member

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    Every one of my major relapses was caused by weight lifting, usually pressing weights (bench press, dumbell press etc). This is what sent me from around 90% functioning to about 30-40% so be very careful. Now I barely exercise at all because just socialising or walking from car to restaurant for example is enough exercise for the day.
     
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  19. BadBadBear

    BadBadBear Senior Member

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    I lift weights when I am in a remission period. I was doing great at the end of 2016 and had been lifting for several months. Feb. 2017 I did 1 minute, literally 1 damn minute, of an aerobic exercise and I am still sick! If I can ever get back into remission, I will slowly build up my weight lifting again.
     
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  20. Wishful

    Wishful Senior Member

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    This disorder would be easier to deal with if it was consistent between victims. Here we seem to have one group that has no trouble from aerobic exercise, but get PEM from muscle strain, and another group with the reverse. If nothing else, it makes making suggestions for others difficult.
     
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