Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by lookinglass, Aug 24, 2013.
So if this is well known about, why do those in power pretend not to have heard of it?
Vaccination and autoimmunity-'vaccinosis': a dangerous liaison?
Shoenfeld Y, Aron-Maor A.
Department of Internal Medicine B, Sheba Medical Center, Tel Hashomer, Israel. email@example.com
The question of a connection between vaccination and autoimmune illness (or phenomena) is surrounded by controversy. A heated debate is going on regarding the causality between vaccines, such as measles and anti-hepatitis B virus (HBV), and multiple sclerosis (MS). Brain antibodies as well as clinical symptoms have been found in patients vaccinated against those diseases. Other autoimmune illnesses have been associated with vaccinations. Tetanus toxoid, influenza vaccines, polio vaccine, and others, have been related to phenomena ranging from autoantibodies production to full-blown illness (such as rheumatoid arthritis (RA)). Conflicting data exists regarding also the connection between autism and vaccination with measles vaccine. So far only one controlled study of an experimental animal model has been published, in which the possible causal relation between vaccines and autoimmune findings has been examined: in healthy puppies immunized with a variety of commonly given vaccines, a variety of autoantibodies have been documented but no frank autoimmune illness was recorded. The findings could also represent a polyclonal activation (adjuvant reaction). The mechanism (or mechanisms) of autoimmune reactions following immunization has not yet been elucidated. One of the possibilities is molecular mimicry; when a structural similarity exists between some viral antigen (or other component of the vaccine) and a self-antigen. This similarity may be the trigger to the autoimmune reaction. Other possible mechanisms are discussed. Even though the data regarding the relation between vaccination and autoimmune disease is conflicting, it seems that some autoimmune phenomena are clearly related to immunization (e.g. Guillain-Barre syndrome). The issue of the risk of vaccination remains a philosophical one, since to date the advantages of this policy have not been refuted, while the risk for autoimmune disease has not been irrevocably proved. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10648110
Autoimmunity following hepatitis B vaccine as part of the spectrum of 'Autoimmune (Auto-inflammatory) Syndrome induced by Adjuvants' (ASIA): analysis of 93 cases.
Zafrir Y, Agmon-Levin N, Paz Z, Shilton T, Shoenfeld Y.
The Zabludowicz Center for Autoimmune Diseases, Sheba Medical Center, Tel-Hashomer, Israel.
In this study we analyzed the clinical and demographic manifestations among patients diagnosed with immune/autoimmune-mediated diseases post-hepatitis B vaccination. We aimed to find common denominators for all patients, regardless of different diagnosed diseases, as well as the correlation to the criteria of Autoimmune (Auto-inflammatory) Syndrome induced by Adjuvants (ASIA).
PATIENTS AND METHODS:
We have retrospectively analyzed the medical records of 114 patients, from different centers in the USA, diagnosed with immune-mediated diseases following immunization with hepatitis-B vaccine (HBVv). All patients in this cohort sought legal consultation. Of these, 93/114 patients diagnosed with disease before applying for legal consultation were included in the study. All medical records were evaluated for demographics, medical history, number of vaccine doses, peri-immunization adverse events and clinical manifestations of diseases. In addition, available blood tests, imaging results, treatments and outcomes were recorded. Signs and symptoms of the different immune-mediated diseases were grouped according to the organ or system involved. ASIA criteria were applied to all patients.
The mean age of 93 patients was 26.5 ± 15 years; 69.2% were female and 21% were considered autoimmune susceptible. The mean latency period from the last dose of HBVv and onset of symptoms was 43.2 days. Of note, 47% of patients continued with the immunization program despite experiencing adverse events. Manifestations that were commonly reported included neuro-psychiatric (70%), fatigue (42%) mucocutaneous (30%), musculoskeletal (59%) and gastrointestinal (50%) complaints. Elevated titers of autoantibodies were documented in 80% of sera tested. In this cohort 80/93 patients (86%), comprising 57/59 (96%) adults and 23/34 (68%) children, fulfilled the required criteria for ASIA.
Common clinical characteristics were observed among 93 patients diagnosed with immune-mediated conditions post-HBVv, suggesting a common denominator in these diseases. In addition, risk factors such as history of autoimmune diseases and the appearance of adverse event(s) during immunization may serve to predict the risk of post-immunization http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22235045
The findings could also represent a polyclonal activation (adjuvant reaction).
I have heard of this before. Didn't Lipkin say that two thirds of his ME subjects had polyclonal b-cell activation?
Aluminum vaccine adjuvants: are they safe?
Tomljenovic L, Shaw CA.
Neural Dynamics Research Group, Department of Ophthalmology and Visual Sciences, University of British Columbia, Vancouver, BC, V5Z 1L8, Canada. firstname.lastname@example.org
Aluminum is an experimentally demonstrated neurotoxin and the most commonly used vaccine adjuvant. Despite almost 90 years of widespread use of aluminum adjuvants, medical science's understanding about their mechanisms of action is still remarkably poor. There is also a concerning scarcity of data on toxicology and pharmacokinetics of these compounds. In spite of this, the notion that aluminum in vaccines is safe appears to be widely accepted. Experimental research, however, clearly shows that aluminum adjuvants have a potential to induce serious immunological disorders in humans. In particular, aluminum in adjuvant form carries a risk for autoimmunity, long-term brain inflammation and associated neurological complications and may thus have profound and widespread adverse health consequences. In our opinion, the possibility that vaccine benefits may have been overrated and the risk of potential adverse effects underestimated, has not been rigorously evaluated in the medical and scientific community. We hope that the present paper will provide a framework for a much needed and long overdue assessment of this highly contentious medical issue.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21568886
there are a lot of parallels here to the way the immune system is reacting in ME
I seriously doubt that Dr Lipkin will find any infectious agent in the gut. The causative agent will not be there, and we will go back to a theory which supposes an immune challenge by an organism which then has been eradicated but leaves a dysregulated immune system behind.
They may accept we are ill on this basis and look for treatments to help us, but the most probable culprit for the originating infection, leading to ME, based on the papers above is likely to be vaccination.
10-15% of us become ill immediately following a vaccine. But a sequence of vaccines could dysregulate the inmmune system and it could then respond to an ordinary infection with an ME type illness after several years.
Aluminium...wasn't that what was dumped into the drinking supply in Camelford?
Another syndrome characterized by fatigue, neurological deficits, cognitive dysfunctions, and motor neuron disease is GWS. This syndrome may result from an adjuvant effect following multiple vaccinations performed over a short period of time. During the Gulf War, the veterans’ vaccination protocol included the anthrax vaccine, administered in a six-shot regimen and adjuvanted by aluminium hydroxide and squalene.10 In a relatively large study of 144 Gulf War-era veterans, 95% of overtly ill deployed GWS patients had antibodies to squalene. Furthermore, 100% of GWS patients immunized for service who did not deploy but had the same manifestations as those who did deploy had antibodies to squalene. In contrast, none of the control groups that incorporated patients with autoimmune diseases, healthy controls, and Persian Gulf veterans not showing signs of GWS had antibodies to squalene. Thus, although the pathogenesis of GWS is under scrutiny, the data assembled at this time highlight the possible role of adjuvants in this syndrome.http://www.the-rheumatologist.org/d...SIA_A_New_Way_to_Put_the_Puzzle_Together.html
When I was seven I got Measles Encephalitis, the other ME (joke) . I am guessing that is where it all started, as I was always somewhere between fatigued and exhausted after that.
Finally this year I qualify for a diagnosis of haemochromatosis, though it was obvious I had the tendency for some years now I never fit the technical specification.
Measels encephalitis is a serious thing,I think mine was more like ADEM the immune reaction,I was wondering if you ever had a second trigger event like EBV or was it called me/cfs from after youre measels encephalitis
Im more interested in the Hannah polling case now.She had an underlying mitochondrial disorder than vaccines aggravated.I think the important thing about some vaccines is they contain weakened live virus making it a VIRAL reaction.I think EBV could also upset an underlying mitochondrial disorder later in life,I myself had both upsets.
Yes - and guess who dismissed victims' symptoms as psychological...
I'm borderline Aspie by two different online questionnaires. It could explain a lot of my unusual characteristics and behaviours as a child.
How do you know you're not? Have you had a formal test?
I come out at 30 - so that's 3 tests that say I'm borderline. I can definitely relate to Aspies, and you said in another thread that you could too, I think - in that they say what they mean, essentially. Most neurotypical people are discomfited by people being really blunt and literal like Aspies are, I think. They can perceive it as rudeness or aggression.
Yes - the ME does cloud the issue. I did one questionnaire twice - once as I am now and once giving answers according to how I was before getting ME. The before-ME score was not as close to borderline, but still nearish.
It took me a while to figure out that psychological tests are set up to diagnose as many people as possible as potential mental patients. When I became aware of the game, I learned how to answer them correctly.
For example, if you are asked if you no longer participate in usual activities and answer yes, this will be counted as being depressed. Really, you are just too ill to participate.
Anyone who can live with horrible pain, severe sensory overload and crushing exhaustion is a strong person.
As far as ASD being the same as ME, not so sure. I do have interaction with ASD kids and I see the sensory overload, flushing and GI distress (usually constipation) that occurs in ME. I do not see the severe lack of energy or PEM that is a hallmark of ME. Also, don't see ongoing severe pain (decades).
What I do see is two diseases that governments do NOT want to admit may very well be linked to vaccinations. I got ME from a Hepatitis vaccination.
Hi @Madison! I actually just introduced myself this morning via thread labeled Mama bear and her cubs. My oldest has Apergers and my youngest had case of PANDAS.
Just wanted to add my two cents to this conversation. I do not think CFS and autism are the same syndrome, but I can understand how some may come to that conclusion, speaking from my personal experience.
Before I got ME/CFS I was a much more social and mentally sharp person, with a knack for personal interactions. I had tons of friends and, for the most part didn't have any social phobias of any kind. I was involved with theater groups since age nine!
For me, one of the most pernicious aspects of CFS has been my cognitive breakdown, at many levels: memory loss, difficulty concentrating, loss of mental sharpness, brain fog, major scatterbrain, even difficulties with speech at times. Most of the time I feel like I'm not fully awake, which I'm sure the decade-plus of awful sleep has something to do with it. Often times I am so very mentally fatigued that I found myself extremely introverted and unengaged in social situations.
It's not that I didn't care, not that I didn't want to be engaging and be social... but my brain is so extremely exhausted most of the time that I can't gather the energy, interest, or effort.
I have no doubt some people may have thought that I had some sort of autistic trait. If only they have known my former rocking self!
I still work; I have no other choice, despite the extreme exhaustion. I know for a fact more than one or two coworkers have thought there's something wrong with me, something not quite right in the noggin. It's mostly due to the lack of memory and the utterly scattered brain, but also about how I get extremely introverted and lost in my own world when my CFS symptoms are at it's worst.
Maybe there's some relation between CFS and autism, but I'm not aware that autistics get the awful flu-like relapses, energy depletion, and the pernicious immune dysfunction that we suffer.
@alex3619 and @Bob I agree with you both, but there is no doubt that important polymorphisms in the methylation cycle (MTHFR and MTR/MTRR) are shown in both groups. Jill James (see PubMed) and Rich Van Konynenburg have reported low glutathione in both groups. Then there are lots of other intervidual differences that affects the sickness. Maybe you have watched the seminar (or the slides) from Rich Van Konynenburg´s seminar where he talks
http://iaomt.media.fnf.nu/2/skovde_2011_me_kroniskt_trotthetssyndrom/ on this too.
So far, I haven´t found anything that is contradictionary to Rich´s basic hypothesis about a methylation blockage that is expressed in many, many ways ( vulnerability to infections and intoxications a.o.). I think a methylation blockage is necessary for ME/CFS, but not sufficient. And a risk factor as you say, Alex, but there must be more to trigger sickness.
Among my new friends with ME/CFS it is definitely more common with Asperger personalities, as well as other ASD´s, among them and their children (and also parents and other close relatives). It is more common , but there is also a wide range of personalities as you, Bob says so it is a correlation but not a cause as far as I can see.
I must express clearly that I do appreciate my Asperger friends ( though I am not Aspie myself ). They contribute particularly with sharp minds and logic thinking as well as loyalty among other positive things.
I also agree to that the symptoms from ME/CFS makes you less extrovert (if you were before getting sick), as it just don´t work being extrovert with brain fog and fatigue.
My son has a diagnosis of Asperger's along with Sensory Processing Disorder. It's true the classic signs of autism are not bed-ridden fatigue and the classic signs of Me/CFS are not hand flapping and tantrums nor the high intelligence of Asperger's, but my son has had persistent fatigue to the point that we have nearly homeschooled just for that reason. But then my son's symptoms only half matched classic "Asperger's". He had severe sensory issues including no sense of smell and he taught himself to read at 2 1/2 so ended up an Aspie. He was finally diagnosed this year with severe B-12 deficiency and is doing better than he's done his entire life. (See story in http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/mama-bear-with-cubs.26975/#post-411600 )
I think the problem with comparing Autism and CFS is difficult because the medical world still divides us up according to major symptoms without really identifying where those symptoms are coming from. I know kids on the spectrum who have gotten completely well on GF/CF, but others who showed no improvements at all. I have a friend from high school who came down with ME/CFS and never recovered. Later in our life, a mutual friend and her husband spent 2 years in a downward spiral of chronic fatigue and she was terrified that she had what our other friend had... it turned out to be a hidden mold problem in their foundation. She and her husband got well immediately, but mold-removal wasn't a cure for my friend.
I know my son developed more of the classic autism symptoms during the time he was on PPIs, even though a psychologist assured me you can't develop autism at age 8, I must have just been in denial. Well my son didn't rock back and forth until then and isolate himself on the playground until then. He was completely exhausted then. Didn't have the energy to play at all and if I made him go outside he would just sit on the steps and cry! Looking back, knowing he had a genetic B12 issue, I believe the PPIs sent him into a B12 nosedive. It was when he got off of them, that he began to get past that. We didn't know why then, but looking back knowing what I've learned about methylation, I believe Asperger's and autism were just tags the doctors used to identify his body and had nothing at all to do with healing him. My son got swept under the Autism Spectrum rug because experts didn't want to take the time to look into what was going on with him on a cellular level. I think if he had shown the same symptoms as an adult, as my brother and I actually did, they would have swept him under a different rug. Interestingly enough, according to 23andme, my brother and I have extremely similar methylation issues as my son. Different rugs, same underlying issues.
I agree wholeheartedly. It's the paradigm of modern Western medicine. Some traditional systems of medicine divide conditions up differently. I don't know much about them, but maybe one or more of them has it right, or at least more right than we have.
Have you seen this thread, @S.A.?
You can also try a Google Site Search
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