• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

Amino Acid Therapy - Anyone Familiar?

Richard7

Senior Member
Messages
772
Location
Australia
@Justin30
I too have the pieces of food in the stool issue. You know even pieces of soft ripe paw paw (papaya) or peach that somehow survive all the way out into the toilet bowl at whatever size they were when I swallowed them.

I have this even though I have been taking betaine HCL, bile and enzymes. I think the issue is that in a healthy person the stomache and gut move to agitate/blend the food.

I know that this agitation does not happen in the stomach of migrainers who are having a migraine. And I expect that it is not happening, or not happening sufficiently in people with ME/CFS.
 
Last edited:

Justin30

Senior Member
Messages
1,065
@Justin30
I too kave the pieces of food in the stool issue. You know even pieces of soft ripe paw paw (papaya) or peach that somehow survive all the way out into the toilet bowl at whatever size they were when I swallowed them.

I have this even though I have been taking betaine HCL, bile and enzymes. I think the issue is that in a healthy person the stomache and gut move to agitate/blend the food.

I know that this agitation does not happen in the stomach of migrainers who are having a migraine. And I expect that it is not happening, or not happening sufficiently in people with ME/CFS.

I take those same supplements as well. I love pappaya but for me blueberries, celey and carrots like to come out undigested....other stuff to I am sure.

Thats interesting about the migraines...i wonder if this has to do with either the stress response cause of HPA Axis dysfunction or from Neurological issues...???

Actually its likely related to some sort of Vagues nerve dysfunction not allowing for food to bathe in digestive juices....just a guess

Do you have POTS as well?
 

Kati

Patient in training
Messages
5,497
I do agree that these "Top Drs" have not published all or enough of their findings though many have published papers.

By not publishing findings I agree it is a diservice to the ME community as a whole.

That being said you have in the US 836,000 to 2.5 million and possibly up to 4 million US citizens that supposedly have ME but you only have 10 to 15 actually specialists to try to treat it. I think this is a major problem.

Most of these Drs are full or have waitlists over 6 months to a year. These Drs are really part of a small minority that try to treat the disease.

Knowing this, cause your a retired Dr, wouldnt it make it extremely difficult to research, treat, apply for funding and do clinical trials when there are only so many hours in a day? I dont know it just seems like its very difficult to do all this and most like Klimas and Bested said only spending 15 to 30 mins is inadequate amount of time to get the real picture of the illness and whats happening/dysfunctional in the persons body.

If you have a disease that affects every bodily system which ME is said to do....then how if everyone is different...and the systems that are affected are different like in lupus....does a ME Dr collect this information in a reliable enough manor to publish without the support of government funding, assitance, training in med school, etc.?

With all the potential issues with all bodily systems and very degrees of severity a Dr would have to test so much. Look at what the ICC Criteria requests for testing as well as CCC. Not only does the ICC criteria include blood work, but PET, SPECT, MRI, Microbiome, Immune Panels, Cytokine Panels, Dyautonomia Testing, active and reactivated virus or bacterial tests, spinal taps and the list goes on.

With this in mind how would a Dr. Do this, collect information accurately define stages and subgroups and be able to do so with so little funding? Further how would a patient get a SPECT or PET Scan and the other strange tests done when in for example my city we have 1 SPECT Machine that I know of and it is used for research? Further if you dont have public health care and your insurance does cover all these tests how do you get them done on a limited budget?

My final points are we have Drs wailing for funding when there is only 5 million allocated per year in the US, 200 k in Canada, whatever pennies allocated in other countries.

The disease burden is millions of people with CFS, ME, MUPS, CFID, Yuppie Flu, or whatever you want to call it. It is biological and not psychsomatic. How are you supposed to study it with 5 million per year in the US (granted now more), a list of tests that stretches a mile (per ICC), over 80-90% of Drs that do not believe in the illness and put whatever they want in their notes some true some false, and a patient community that many cant get out of their beds or houses or have the funding or support to get the tests done?

You said:
If it was a t all common it would not be called ME, it would be called iodiopathic malabsorption with fatigue (IMF).If it was a t all common it would not be called ME, it would be called iodiopathic malabsorption with fatigue (IMF)."

Not all will have malabsorption but we all know we are sick....with a similar cascade of symptoms as per CCC/ICC Criteria.

Bowel/GI problems are part of this criteria.

I think what point people are trying to get to via this thread is we the patient have to look for things because many of our Drs dont believe in ME.

And as it stands right now I am wearing a holter monitor for POTS Stuff (DXed), have chest pain, blurred vision, numbness and tingling, muscle twitching, swollen glands and IBS-C this morning with undigested food in my poo and a Lipase test that just came back lowest range 23 i was 24 and my GP Dr said I was fine....I am 30 years old....Am I fine?

My ME specialist Dr straight up told me the degree of turnaround in his office with administrators, nurses, etc. was on average every 6 months.....he said the main reason they leave is because they have a hard time seeing people in so much pain, suffering and sickness.....I have seen the patients really sick ones screaming, crying, etc. and would not be able to take it...especially the young ones which I have seen to...

I know I wrote alot and lIke I said Dr. Edwards I see your points and agree with you but we have an epidemic on our hands if the stats are true.....and how will disbelief, a lack of practioners and support staff, and no or little funding prove that malabsorption is not part of some peoples illnesses.

I went to my neuroligist showed him videos of my twitching, he could not find it on EMG. then he saw them with his eyes on my back upper arm, etc...did not stick the needle in anywhere near the site of the faciculation and told me your symptoms do not show Benign Faciculation Syndrome...you should go exercise more to prevent deconditioning, he knows and doesnt believe in ME and says it is a highly contested illness....i have lost 37 pounds in 11 months I have not been inactive the whole time . I have see 20 (from ER to 9 Top Specialists in my city) other Drs didnt listen to my symptoms either accept my GP.

I guess bottom line is how in these sorts of circumstances being human and wanting to live do we as patients not look for answers anywhere and everywhere when the medical community as a whole disregards us having an illness that is not recognized or id in our heads.

I am not trying to be hostile or disrespectful as this is not in my nature and I am glad you are part of this forum sharing your knowledge and expertise with us.
The journey is not straightforward. It is bound to be difficult.

That is why it is helpful to see a specialist who sees only patients with ME and related illness. Within that contest, each of our ME expert practices differently and use different lines of treatment accordingly.

In the non-ME medical world, many fields are cookie cutter type of medicine. Blood tests, imaging, diagnosis, treatment. Many physicians feel most comfortable with that kind of medicine. It is easier for these physicians to refuse a patient than to deal with the discomfort of not knowing. We patients with ME encounter these specimen on a regular basis.

We can only hope for the best for treatments to become available soon, and for research breakthrough, and for mainstreaming this disease. In the meantime, while we are testing, trialing treatment modality, and simply waiting, there are a few things we can do:

1- support the work of our experts. Many have foundations and rely on donations to pursue research
2- write letters to your government asking for a solid research program
3- support advocacy efforts and consider volunteering or organizing your own action, health willing.
 

Richard7

Senior Member
Messages
772
Location
Australia
@Justin30
Yes. Though my pots seems a bit better at the moment.

I tend to have a resting heart rate of in the high fourties or low fifties, and standing usually puts me up about 90 odd. This is just measured by standing for say 10 or 20 seconds, I have never tried to measure standing still for a full 10 minutes, I am sure I would not be able to. But when I give up trying to wash dishes or cook at the stove (which is almost standing still) my heart rate is usually over 120.

(I dont have the rate at the exact point, I walk to my bedroom check on an O2 perfusion meter, before going to bed for an hour.)

Anyway, I have been experimenting with intermittent fasting for a couple of weeks and the POTS seems to be less of an issue. Sitting at the desk my heart rate is still in the 50s (53), standing today it remained in the 70s (I was not standing for long) that is an improvement of say 10 - 20 bpm on normal.

I am still taking plenty of salt and potassium though.
 

Justin30

Senior Member
Messages
1,065
@Justin30
Yes. Though my pots seems a bit better at the moment.

I tend to have a resting heart rate of in the high fourties or low fifties, and standing usually puts me up about 90 odd. This is just measured by standing for say 10 or 20 seconds, I have never tried to measure standing still for a full 10 minutes, I am sure I would not be able to. But when I give up trying to wash dishes or cook at the stove (which is almost standing still) my heart rate is usually over 120.

(I dont have the rate at the exact point, I walk to my bedroom check on an O2 perfusion meter, before going to bed for an hour.)

Anyway, I have been experimenting with intermittent fasting for a couple of weeks and the POTS seems to be less of an issue. Sitting at the desk my heart rate is still in the 50s (53), standing today it remained in the 70s (I was not standing for long) that is an improvement of say 10 - 20 bpm on normal.

I am still taking plenty of salt and potassium though.

Florinef is helping me I am trying not to over do it though cause I can stand and walk around way longer now.

I think I over did it today.

I also added in ginko and some other hers to help blood flow to the head we'll see what happens.
 

Richard7

Senior Member
Messages
772
Location
Australia
I would happily try the medications, or talk about them, but we do not have a neurologist in town, and my GP does not have the expertise to treat or diagnose POTS.

So its just salt, lots of fluid (mostly tea and coffee), and hope.

i'll have to read up on the ginko.

I may note that I have changed two things at almost at once: I have been trying oral and throat probiotics and the intermittent fasting. Of the two the intermittent fasting is the only one I expect to have an influence on blood chemistry (by reducing insulin levels).
 

Justin30

Senior Member
Messages
1,065
I would happily try the medications, or talk about them, but we do not have a neurologist in town, and my GP does not have the expertise to treat or diagnose POTS.

So its just salt, lots of fluid (mostly tea and coffee), and hope.

i'll have to read up on the ginko.

I may note that I have changed two things at almost at once: I have been trying oral and throat probiotics and the intermittent fasting. Of the two the intermittent fasting is the only one I expect to have an influence on blood chemistry (by reducing insulin levels).

I actually found a 3 cardiologists in my city that deal with POTS.

If you have a local health authority website in you area that explains public health problems then likely if you email them they may be able to help out. This is how I found my POTS Dr.

I do also see a ME specialist.
 
Messages
3
These might be an interesting read if nothing else...


Impaired synthesis or cellular storage of norepinephrine, dopamine, and 5-hydroxytryptamine in human inflammatory bowel disease.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11837726
Abstract
The present study was aimed at evaluating the extent of dysfunction of the enteroendocrine and enteric nervous system, as indicated by changes in tissue levels of monoamines (dopamine, DA; norepinephrine, NE; 5-hydroxytryptamine, 5-HT) and their precursors and metabolites in the colonic mucosa of patients afflicted with ulcerative colitis (UC, N = 21) and Crohn's disease (CD, N = 22). In CD, but not in UC, NE tissue levels in both the noninflamed and inflamed colonic mucosa were markedly lower than in control subjects (N = 16). In the inflamed mucosa of CD and in UC patients levels of L-DOPA were twice those in controls. DA levels in the inflamed mucosa of CD and UC patients were markedly lower than in controls. This resulted in significant reductions in DA/L-DOPA tissue ratios, a rough measure of L-amino acid decarboxylase activity. 5-HT levels in the inflamed mucosa of CD and UC patients were markedly lower than in controls. In conclusion, intestinal cellular structures responsible for the synthesis and storage of DA, NE, and 5-HT may have been affected by the associated inflammatory process in both CD and UC.


The Dopaminergic System in Autoimmune Diseases
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3968755/
Abstract

Bidirectional interactions between the immune and the nervous systems are of considerable interest both for deciphering their functioning and for designing novel therapeutic strategies. The past decade has brought a burst of insights into the molecular mechanisms involved in neuroimmune communications mediated by dopamine. Studies of dendritic cells (DCs) revealed that they express the whole machinery to synthesize and store dopamine, which may act in an autocrine manner to stimulate dopamine receptors (DARs). Depending on specific DARs stimulated on DCs and T cells, dopamine may differentially favor CD4
+
T cell differentiation into Th1 or Th17 inflammatory cells. Regulatory T cells can also release high amounts of dopamine that acts in an autocrine DAR-mediated manner to inhibit their suppressive activity. These dopaminergic regulations could represent a driving force during autoimmunity. Indeed, dopamine levels are altered in the brain of mouse models of multiple sclerosis (MS) and lupus, and in inflamed tissues of patients with inflammatory bowel diseases or rheumatoid arthritis (RA). The distorted expression of DARs in peripheral lymphocytes of lupus and MS patients also supports the importance of dopaminergic regulations in autoimmunity. Moreover, dopamine analogs had beneficial therapeutic effects in animal models, and in patients with lupus or RA. We propose models that may underlie key roles of dopamine and its receptors in autoimmune diseases.

 

CCC

Senior Member
Messages
457
Thought I would just throw this out there....

Following @ahmo (again) we've had a nightly footbath of epsom salts (1 soup spoon), borax (just a pinch) amino acids, eucalyptus oil and tea tree oil. Sometimes potassium is added if the diet has been a bit sparse that day.

I personally have doubts that the amino acids can be absorbed because they don't dissolve well, but there seems to be a difference in wellbeing if I leave them out of the footbath for a few days. And anyway, there are reports of people being poisoned in major industrial accidents from these things, so there must be some absorption capacity.

The difference isn't specifically energy or anything, it's just more a sense of things working.