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Active B12 Protocol Basics

garyfritz

Senior Member
Messages
599
Congrats to you!

Why sulbiutamine specifically? It's a synthetic derivative of thiamine (B1) according to Wikipedia.

I've got MTRR but not MTR (? thought I did :)) and I've also got a voracious appetite for B12 -- when I was using sublinguals I used almost as much as you. Greg has never figured out why I need so much.

How are you using the sublinguals? Sucking on them, under your tongue, break in quarters between lip & gum, ...? That makes a big difference in how much you actually absorb.
 
Messages
77
Congrats to you!

Why sulbiutamine specifically? It's a synthetic derivative of thiamine (B1) according to Wikipedia.

I've got MTRR but not MTR (? thought I did :)) and I've also got a voracious appetite for B12 -- when I was using sublinguals I used almost as much as you. Greg has never figured out why I need so much.

How are you using the sublinguals? Sucking on them, under your tongue, break in quarters between lip & gum, ...? That makes a big difference in how much you actually absorb.

ive had good, but short lived experiences with sulbiutamine. It makes me feel great at first and then the nice effects fade away and are replaced by mild anxiety. I'm using it to treat my b1 deficiency but if there's an active form of B1 I'd rather use that! I tried thiamine mononitrate and it made me woozy and foggy

I'm holding the b12 in my gums and every 10 minutes switching between the top and bottom gums, sometimes I keep it under the tongue until it's fully absorbed unless I gotta talk to someone.
 
Messages
76
I am on 10mg adeno a day. It works great! Very strong effect on energy.

I am crushing the pill up and adding water and bicarb turning it into a paste. Then rubbing it on my gums. Its almost instant that i get the effects Compared to it slowly absorbing in upper lip. The neurological brightening is only just tolerable. Feels like a Rocket ship!

Thanks to Hip for this method.

I am on
5mg CL methylb12
2mg Solgar Metafolin
10mg Source Naturals dibencozide
500mg source naturals LCF

Doing pretty well. Fatigue is much much better. But the best i felt was on 15mg b12. I will be trying the b12 oils next! And maybe some B2. I don't feel like i get much benefit from high folate. I get around 500mcg from food, so i might just take another 400-800mcg. Not running into paradoxical folate problems it seems..... just need a lot of active b12
 

junkcrap50

Senior Member
Messages
1,330
ive had good, but short lived experiences with sulbiutamine. It makes me feel great at first and then the nice effects fade away and are replaced by mild anxiety. I'm using it to treat my b1 deficiency but if there's an active form of B1 I'd rather use that! I tried thiamine mononitrate and it made me woozy and foggy

I'm holding the b12 in my gums and every 10 minutes switching between the top and bottom gums, sometimes I keep it under the tongue until it's fully absorbed unless I gotta talk to someone.
I would recommend to try switching from sulbutiamine to benfotiamine. Sulbutiamine, if you search on nootropic sites/forums, can cause dependencey and rapid tolerance build-up in some people. The nootropic geeks seem to be very cautious about it. I recommend you do your own research into it. Benfotiamine is also fat-soluable form of thiamine so it has good absorption.
 

garyfritz

Senior Member
Messages
599
I'm holding the b12 in my gums and every 10 minutes switching between the top and bottom gums, sometimes I keep it under the tongue until it's fully absorbed unless I gotta talk to someone.
Wow, and you still need 45mg/day? Hard telling how much of it you are actually absorbing, but obviously you need a whole lot.
 
Messages
77
I would recommend to try switching from sulbutiamine to benfotiamine. Sulbutiamine, if you search on nootropic sites/forums, can cause dependencey and rapid tolerance build-up in some people. The nootropic geeks seem to be very cautious about it. I recommend you do your own research into it. Benfotiamine is also fat-soluable form of thiamine so it has good absorption.
Thanks for the suggestion! I'm waiting on Benfotiamine to arrive in the mail, but in the meantime I'm trying thiamine HCL out. So far no side effects that I'm aware of, I've been taking it at night to prevent any interactions with b12

On a side note to anyone who can help me out, my fatigue came back with a vengeance:

I was taking Albuterol until two days ago, once I dropped it I've felt a light fever after taking b12/folate and coffee that last all day. This leaves me with a mid day fatigue even while consuming 1g of caffeine every day (1000mcg of caffeine, not a typo). I take 20oz of cold brew coffee in the morning, and two caffeine products that contain CoQ10 which Freddd warns about, but my fatigue reaction starts with plain cold brew coffee in the morning.

Are my adrenals fried?

My Nutreval test showed that I'm mildly intolerant to coffee, so I intend to drop my coffee consumption to 200mg a day, but this has never been an issue before...
 
Messages
77
I also just remembered that I took a small scoop of BCAA's in the mornings that contained Betaine Anhydrous and Citruline and AAKG. I already take 7200mg of Betaine HCL with pepsin split into 4 doses with protein, I also have several NOS1,2 and 3 snps.

Can any of this be causing my dreaded fatigue?
 
Messages
76
Hello people.

I really need some tips. Adenob12 has started causing severe depression.

I started out doing well on
5mg b12
2mg adenob12
2mg folate
500mg LCF.

I was stable there, so i want to see if i could get more results. I upped adeno to 10mg and while it helped at first, now it causes sever depression

I woke up today feeling good. Then i took adeno and 40min later severe depression.

I am not sure what to do. Lower the adeno or quit it. Or raise folate?

I dont think i have low folate sides. I have taken up to 15mg a day with minimal results. Seems i really need methylb12.

No idea on the ratio for adeno and methyl.

Would appreciate some help. Depression sucks and it was cured when i first started this regime
 
Messages
77
Hello people.

I really need some tips. Adenob12 has started causing severe depression.

I started out doing well on
5mg b12
2mg adenob12
2mg folate
500mg LCF.

I was stable there, so i want to see if i could get more results. I upped adeno to 10mg and while it helped at first, now it causes sever depression

I woke up today feeling good. Then i took adeno and 40min later severe depression.

I am not sure what to do. Lower the adeno or quit it. Or raise folate?

I dont think i have low folate sides. I have taken up to 15mg a day with minimal results. Seems i really need methylb12.

No idea on the ratio for adeno and methyl.

Would appreciate some help. Depression sucks and it was cured when i first started this regime
Hello jengonwin

I've also had problems with adenob12, but my side effect has mostly been fatigue related. From what I've read, adenob12 is already converted mb12 for the Citric acid cycle. There's a possibility you have no problems converting methyl to adenob12 and adding extra adenob12 upset the balance between the dreadlock quartet.

If I were you I would drop my adeno dose by a miligram, or raise your mb12. Freddd and a few others have had success with dosing adeno once a week in a large dose, and I've personally found it worked best for me when I took adeno and mb12 in a 1/6 ratio daily. I take 10mg of adeno in the morning and 60mg of mb12 spread through the day along with 24mg of mfolate and 855mg of LCF
 
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Messages
76
thanks for the reply.

It is a real shame. as i want to try the b12 oils product but it has more adeno then methyl
 

junkcrap50

Senior Member
Messages
1,330
Hello people.

I really need some tips. Adenob12 has started causing severe depression.

I started out doing well on
5mg b12
2mg adenob12
2mg folate
500mg LCF.

I was stable there, so i want to see if i could get more results. I upped adeno to 10mg and while it helped at first, now it causes sever depression

I woke up today feeling good. Then i took adeno and 40min later severe depression.

I am not sure what to do. Lower the adeno or quit it. Or raise folate?

I dont think i have low folate sides. I have taken up to 15mg a day with minimal results. Seems i really need methylb12.

No idea on the ratio for adeno and methyl.

Would appreciate some help. Depression sucks and it was cured when i first started this regime

From my extensive reading of the forums here on the Fredd Protocol, I don't recall any mention of a "proper" ratio between adeno and methyl. It's all dependent on the person and how one feels to increasing their dosages. So, I wouldn't worry about that. However, if you increased your dose from 2mg to 10mg adenosyl at once, then that's a big jump up and big change. That's far too much, far too fast. If you did, I would go back to 2mg of adenosyl.

From my reading on the forums, I had understood that one should increase all their DQ levels first to 1,000mcg/mg before going above that. However, reaching that conclusion took A LOT of reading and A LOT of confusion, especially since Fredd didn't recommend that until more recently, after he had already developed the protocol and gave recommendations. So, I would titrate your LCF dose up to 1,000mg first before adjusting adenosyl and methyl.

Thirdly, depression may be a low methylfolate issue. Other symptoms are more common for early signs of low methylfolate, but everyone is different. Not everyone gets angular cheilitis or other mouth symptoms first. So, depression may be more common for you. In addition, methylfolate in large doses is often used to treat depression, which is what prescription Deplin is used for. So, upping your methylfolate may help your depression. (Maybe the larger adenosyl caused low folate).

Lastly, when all else fails, I look to cofactors. I couldn't tell you for sure which ones, but I think the importane of B-vitamins (B1, B2, B3, B6) are understated by Fredd and others as cofactors. Very recently, I had some depression come up while playing around with B1 and B3 cofactors, when trying to address headaches. And in trying 1 dosage of P-5-P (B6) seemed to help that day with the depresssion. I haven't be able to confirm it or say P-5-P helped me with it, but I mention it as a hunch I have (at least for myself).

Hope this helps you

PS: I'm soon placing an order on the B12 oils and am going to get the adenosyl and methyl separately. Since Fredd says the adenosyl can be stored somewhat in reserve in mitochondria (hence can be taking only 1x/week), then perhaps the sublingual adenosyl is okay to take without worry of consistent absoprtion. While methyl B12 needs a more constant and consistent delivery of dosing, the B12 oil is better than the sublingual for that particular form. You could always play with taking one type of b12 as an oil and another as a sublingual. That's what I plan on doing while playing around with it.
 
Messages
37
I would recommend to try switching from sulbutiamine to benfotiamine. Sulbutiamine, if you search on nootropic sites/forums, can cause dependencey and rapid tolerance build-up in some people. The nootropic geeks seem to be very cautious about it. I recommend you do your own research into it. Benfotiamine is also fat-soluable form of thiamine so it has good absorption.

If it's fat soluble, do you have to take the vitamin with some fatty food? Might be a dumb question, but in the past I've just taken a bunch of vitamins without worrying how they'd be absorbed... I was taking benfotiamine for a while.

So what I'm gathering from reading these posts is that the Active B12 Protocol isn't an exact science. Is that correct? 'Cause I'm kind of perfectionistic, and that is good to know because I was worried reading the summaries that I could kill myself or something by supplementing too little potassium or missing somesuch detail.
 
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Messages
77
If it's fat soluble, do you have to take the vitamin with some fatty food? Might be a dumb question, but in the past I've just taken a bunch of vitamins without worrying how they'd be absorbed... I was taking benfotiamine for a while.

So what I'm gathering from reading these posts is that the Active B12 Protocol isn't an exact science. Is that correct? 'Cause I'm kind of perfectionistic, and that is good to know because I was worried reading the summaries that I could kill myself or something by supplementing too little potassium or missing somesuch detail.
It's trial and error. I take 60mg of mb12 and 24mg of folate but no potassium. Potassium gives me a debilitating brain fog because it's a b12 antagonist, I feel noticeably weaker after I take it so I skip it.
 
Messages
76
From my extensive reading of the forums here on the Fredd Protocol, I don't recall any mention of a "proper" ratio between adeno and methyl. It's all dependent on the person and how one feels to increasing their dosages. So, I wouldn't worry about that. However, if you increased your dose from 2mg to 10mg adenosyl at once, then that's a big jump up and big change. That's far too much, far too fast. If you did, I would go back to 2mg of adenosyl.

From my reading on the forums, I had understood that one should increase all their DQ levels first to 1,000mcg/mg before going above that. However, reaching that conclusion took A LOT of reading and A LOT of confusion, especially since Fredd didn't recommend that until more recently, after he had already developed the protocol and gave recommendations. So, I would titrate your LCF dose up to 1,000mg first before adjusting adenosyl and methyl.

Thirdly, depression may be a low methylfolate issue. Other symptoms are more common for early signs of low methylfolate, but everyone is different. Not everyone gets angular cheilitis or other mouth symptoms first. So, depression may be more common for you. In addition, methylfolate in large doses is often used to treat depression, which is what prescription Deplin is used for. So, upping your methylfolate may help your depression. (Maybe the larger adenosyl caused low folate).

Lastly, when all else fails, I look to cofactors. I couldn't tell you for sure which ones, but I think the importane of B-vitamins (B1, B2, B3, B6) are understated by Fredd and others as cofactors. Very recently, I had some depression come up while playing around with B1 and B3 cofactors, when trying to address headaches. And in trying 1 dosage of P-5-P (B6) seemed to help that day with the depresssion. I haven't be able to confirm it or say P-5-P helped me with it, but I mention it as a hunch I have (at least for myself).

Hope this helps you

PS: I'm soon placing an order on the B12 oils and am going to get the adenosyl and methyl separately. Since Fredd says the adenosyl can be stored somewhat in reserve in mitochondria (hence can be taking only 1x/week), then perhaps the sublingual adenosyl is okay to take without worry of consistent absoprtion. While methyl B12 needs a more constant and consistent delivery of dosing, the B12 oil is better than the sublingual for that particular form. You could always play with taking one type of b12 as an oil and another as a sublingual. That's what I plan on doing while playing around with it.

Thanks for the informative reply!

I tried 2.5mg adeno today and no depression really. THe b12 oils will absorb slower i assume so i guess thats good.

Im very low on money so i cannot buy sublinguials and oils. But i think il just bite the bullet and try the adeno/methyl cream.

Carntine i have raised to 1000mg some days but while it helped the first week i was on it, it doesnt do anything now. I tried 2000mg with no effect so i dont think i lack this. I also went up to 15mg folate with minimal results. The only things i seem to get results from is the active b12s.. So i dont know how much methylfolate i should be taking in. Maybe just 1mg a day to be sure i do not block the cycle with high dose active b12
 
Messages
37
Random question: I've been sometimes taking one of Hip's anxiety supplements called NAG (n-acetyl-glucosamine). Does anyone know if this would interfere with methylation like NAC does? Thanks guys.
 
Messages
77
Hello all, are you taking your methylfolate with food or on an empty stomach? I heard something about increased folate absorption with food, I tried it with a snack and felt sudden heart palpitations and increased energy with it. I'm already taking b12 along with all the other necessary methylation deadlock supps. Just wanted to know if this was normal, thanks.