A New Decade of ME Research: The 11th Invest in ME International ME Conference 2016
Mark Berry presents the first in a series of articles on the 11th Invest in ME International ME Conference in London ...
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Acetylcholine caused crash

Discussion in 'Post-Exertional Malaise, Fatigue, and Crashes' started by Xander5, Feb 17, 2016.

  1. Gingergrrl

    Gingergrrl Senior Member

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    I agree it is marketed as harmless but depending on the person's ability to tolerate cholinergic meds/supps, it could be extremely dangerous. I suspect this kind of supplement would injure or even kill me based on past experience of micro doses of cholinergic/anti-cholinergic meds giving me akathesia and respiratory depression. I might be unique in that level of extreme reactions though.
     
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  2. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    No one has mentioned CDP choline (Citicoline). Is that a "mild booster"? Or would it have the potential to cause this AchE upregulation you're talking about?

    I'm on my second trial of Citicoline; the first was over a year ago, and I couldn't tell what caused my cognitive drop at that time, but I attributed it to methylfolate/MeB12 supplementation and/or thiamine deficiency caused by taking a lot of potassium.

    I decided to try it again based on 1) two homozygous snps in MTHFD1 and 2) Alzheimer's in my family.

    I started Citicoline a month ago, and it helped initially, but now I wonder if that's what is draining my brain and my energy, and making me groggy.
     
  3. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    I use CDP-choline and don't find it as strong as ALCAR or Alpha GPC, but I have seen reports from others on the forum that it was too much for them. I hesitate to call it mild.
     
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  4. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    What dose do you use? Do you cycle off of it sometimes?
     
  5. Sidereal

    Sidereal Senior Member

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    Man, I took 1 gram of PC today and I feel like shit, a bunch of old symptoms flooding back. Messing around with cholinergic supplements is most definitely not harmless or risk-free in this patient population.
     
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  6. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    ALCar doesn't contain any choline, though. It has to combine with choline, right?

    I've been using ALCar as part of the deadlock quartet, since LCF didn't seem to have any effect. This made sense to me when I looked up my NAT2 snps. I have rs1799930, rs1041983, and rs1495741 all +/+, making me an "ultra-slow acetylator".

    Perhaps either the ALCar or the Citicoline would be fine for me, but taking both creates too much acetylcholine? Would that make sense?

    I was taking Citicoline mainly as a methyl donor, thinking it would give me fewer problems than methylfolate (which makes me depressed and exhausted).
     
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  7. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    I'm AA, TT, AA for these. Is that what you mean by ++? ALCAR did nothing for me in terms of methylation, but was helpful when I employed it as an antioxidant.

    I'm now happily using both citicoline and AlphaGPC. I'd been worried about reacting poorly to both. I've read that the efficacy is increased when taking with caffeine. certainly the pleasure is.:mug:
     
  8. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    Yes, those are my results, too. I had to do some digging to find these snps, since Sterling's report doesn't have two of them.
     
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  9. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    So does this imply we need need extra because it's utilized too slowly? Or less, because it's hanging around longer? I'm also using lecithin, extra when I'm hot or otherwise stressed.
     
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  10. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    250mg /day. No cycling.
     
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  11. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    ALCAR is not a source of choline, but it still enhances cholinergic transmission.
     
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  12. JPV

    JPV ɹǝqɯǝɯ ɹoıuǝs

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    I found a few discussions on the LongeCity forum that relate to this exact topic. I'm assuming these are some of the message threads that @Xander5 was talking about...

    Can severe stress cause anticholinergic symptoms?
    What are all the possible symptoms of acetylcholine overload?
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2016
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  13. JPV

    JPV ɹǝqɯǝɯ ɹoıuǝs

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    A light bulb went off in my head while reading this thread. After years of minor lingering malaise, the major onset of my ME/CFS symptoms came on very suddenly while taking methamphetamines in my mid 30's. In addition to brain fog and fatigue I also suffer from neurological issues such as a burning sensation in my legs and, what I would probably refer to as, excitotoxicity. I assume some biochemical system got overdriven by the drugs and then became stuck into a permanent state. Like a switch that was turned on and never got turned off.

    My mother had a similar neurologic condition, to mine, with the sudden onset of severe burning sensations in her legs. I believe they diagnosed it as Reflex Sympathetic Dystrophy but this may have been a misdiagnosis for all I know. Her doctor performed a procedure to sever the nerves in her lower back because he couldn't figure out any other way to fix the problem. So I'm assuming that I must have some sort of genetic predisposition.

    This puts a lot of the discussions about Jay Goldstein's rapid remission treatments into a very interesting context. It seems that he came up with numerous ways, through trial and error, to flip these genetic switches back into their normal positions.

    I now strongly feel that issues with acetylcholine/acetylcholinesterase dysfunction is the main problem that I'm dealing with. Many of those with ME/CFS talk about a stressful incident, or accident of some sort, that triggered the onset of their illness. I wonder if they're dealing with similar issues.

    This seems to me to be a very important direction to keep exploring.
     
  14. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    Has anyone managed to find something effective for this issue?
     
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  15. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    I'd be interested in hearing from people who've used bacopa monnieri, since I just ordered some powder.
     
  16. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    Bacopa monnieri is an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor.
     
  17. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    Yes. So that means it would slow the rate of acetylcholine breakdown and theoretically raise acetylcholine levels. I was looking at this quote from JPV above:
    If that is what's going on, then an AChE inhibitor might help, ¿no?
     
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  18. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    If that's the case, then yes.
     
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  19. charlie1

    charlie1 Senior Member

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    It seems most of those on this thread are looking for help with dysautonomia symptoms other than as a help for constipation which Parasym Plus is also supposed to help with. My POTS and Dysautonmia has almost entirely been resolved now but slow GI motility continues despite now starting a motility drug.. Motilium (Domperidone).

    Dr. Diane believes that those like myself with Ehlers Danlos (hypermobility type) who experience chronic C can be helped with her product. I think this is because she feels it is the overly lax ligaments that are contributing to the C and that PP's ingredients work on the Vagus Nerve issue where (my) problem probably initiates from. At least that's my interpretation of her thinking on this ... and I may be wrong.

    Until reading this thread, I was interested in trialing PP for the C issue but now I'm more likely to trial individual supplements of the ingredients....

    Question: Where improved motility is concerned, would the success of Parasym Plus be less likely due to the effects of the Alpha GPC and more likely due to the effects of the Huperzia (since Mestinon, also a cholinesterase inhibitor, is known to increase GI motility/peristalsis )?
    And If that's correct, would the fact that long acting daily supplementation with Mestinon helped with my POTS (initially) but didn't improve my C, mean that I shouldn't be looking into the PP ingredients as an aid for increased peristalsis anyway?

    Thanks, Charlie
    ps. Magnesium supplements makes no difference but Mirulax does help although I'd like to discontinue if possible.
    I realize I'll have to find another thread for that but wanted to know first if I should close the Parasym Plus door for the C issue.
     
  20. MissCB

    MissCB

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    Did you end up trying the individual ingredients or Parasym Plus? I'm curious as to your experience with it. I have Alpha GPC which always eases my POTS symptoms and improves my motility but then is followed my a tingling/ clenching feeling in my brain around 12 hours later.

    I'm curious if maybe taking an inhibitor or PP may correct this issue.
     

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