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Abnormalities of AMPK Activation and Glucose Uptake in Cultured Skeletal Muscle Cells from Individua

I have written on another thread, asking for advice on articles to help my (bascially understanding but underinformed) Dr. understand my extreme limitations with moving by body to exercise much. Here's the link:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...dangers-of-very-much-exercise-to-my-dr.36566/

I am considering giving her this article as well as many others cited on this thread. Would anyone feel inclined to prioritize which ones are most helpful/convincing? Thank you.
 

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
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5,256
I have written on another thread, asking for advice on articles to help my (bascially understanding but underinformed) Dr. understand my extreme limitations with moving by body to exercise much. Here's the link:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...dangers-of-very-much-exercise-to-my-dr.36566/

I am considering giving her this article as well as many others cited on this thread. Would anyone feel inclined to prioritize which ones are most helpful/convincing? Thank you.

I am not sure that any of us on PR is clear how we would interpret this study. As Alex said it raises a lot of questions. I doubt your doctor would be able to make more of it than people here. I would have thought that your doctor is more likely to be informed and persuaded by guideline information like that in the MEA purple booklet. The pity is that we do not have a scientific explanation for the muscle related symptoms as yet. The CPET clinical studies may also be more helpful as I think someone has already mentioned.
 
@Jonathan Edwards, @jimells

Thank you for your keen response. I was aware that many have been puzzled by this one but I thought it was worth asking, just in case anyone had figured it out, since it was recent. I will look up the Purple Booklet you mentioned. @jimells has put up the link. (Thanks to you for that.) I already have the CPET info ready to go.
 

PDXhausted

Senior Member
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258
Location
NW US
The protein that was blamed, nowadays usely is called a surogate marker.

Some TSE strains probably are very old.

Anyway the cellulair prion protein is very very very very old.

I think he meant that question rhetorically, not literally. As in, if a protein can misfold and become "infectious", what other cellular abnormality could propagate itself that is outside our current paradigm?

For context, he specializes in cancer diagnostics and sees so many cellular anomalies in tumors, that he is accutely aware that we have alot to still discover about cellular mechanics, as well as the immune system, viruses, etc.
 

lansbergen

Senior Member
Messages
2,512
I think he meant that question rhetorically, not literally. As in, if a protein can misfold and become "infectious", what other cellular abnormality could propagate itself that is outside our current paradigm?

For context, he specializes in cancer diagnostics and sees so many cellular anomalies in tumors, that he is accutely aware that we have alot to still discover about cellular mechanics, as well as the immune system, viruses, etc.

Yes, very little is known.
 

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
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8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
The primary driver is glycolysis. It is hard to see how a lot of lactate could be produced by any other method. If lactate is increased then where is it coming from?

I am concerned they might be making a conceptual error. I first saw it in Wong et. al. 1986?. 1996? I can get a reference, but its not important. That paper interpreted some findings as increased glycolysis. I pointed out, which was unpopular, that a mitochondrial defect such as a block at aconitase would do the same thing.

In this current paper there might be some decrease in mitochondrial function. It might have similar effects. I have not looked into how AMPK would fit with that hypothesis though.

In other words I think this paper is part of the story, but we have more mysteries to unravel.

One possibility ties right back to NO. This hypothesis is that our eNOS is defective, and pumping out peroxynitrite. As eNOS function is increased during physical activity this might mean that increased activity leads to more peroxynitrite, damaging iron center mitochondrial enzymes, including aconitase. Peroxynitrite destroys aconitase. Glutathione oxidation might also decrease the rate of new aconitase synthesis (its needed to fold the protein in the mitochondria, and aconitase is imported into mitochondria unfolded). One issue I have raised before is that normal aconitase protein levels might not mean much if its not folded or improperly folded. Its about function, not how much there is. Aconitase is also not the only target, there are other enzymes including in the electron transport chain. If a bunch of them are targeted then the total degradation could be high even if the isolated degradation on any one is small.

I just want to comment on iNOS. It is usually not a big driver except in septic shock. Sure individual cells can pump out high concentrations, but I think the volume is usually small. Our blood vessel endothelial lining on the other hand, while producing much less per cell, is pervasive through most tissue, and this includes the brain.

I've only just found this thread so have a lot of reading to do and someone may already have suggested this. If we do have excessive lactate/lactic acid accumulation after exertion in vivo, but our myocytes do not accumulate an excess in vitro, might the real-life situation be simply - or mainly - due to a lack of vasodilation due to insufficient nitric oxide due to insufficient NOS activity? This could lead to inadequate blood supply to the tissues, and thus insufficient oxygen delivered for oxidative phosphorylation to proceed normally?

Low blood volume could also contribute to this insufficiency of blood/oxygen supply to tissues, as could impaired cardiac function.

I'm not sure how this would tie in with the abnormalities found in the mitochondria/myocytes in vitro.
 

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
I've only just found this thread so have a lot of reading to do and someone may already have suggested this. If we do have excessive lactate/lactic acid accumulation after exertion in vivo, but our myocytes do not accumulate an excess in vitro, might the real-life situation be simply - or mainly - due to a lack of vasodilation due to insufficient nitric oxide due to insufficient NOS activity? This could lead to inadequate blood supply to the tissues, and thus insufficient oxygen delivered for oxidative phosphorylation to proceed normally?

Low blood volume could also contribute to this insufficiency of blood/oxygen supply to tissues, as could impaired cardiac function.

I'm not sure how this would tie in with the abnormalities found in the mitochondria/myocytes in vitro.

Yes, I am still unclear whether we have lactate data on the cultured cells. I amy be being stupid. One thing that I would be interested to know is whether they studied other things in the myocytes that gave 'negative' results - i.e. no difference. One of the worries of the current publication system is that negative results tend to get lost.
 

user9876

Senior Member
Messages
4,556
It doesn't rule out a role for 'central fatigue' though even if the primary problem is peripheral. Muscle fatigue signalling by 'alarmins' via toll like receptors is likely to whack microglia. Otherwise it might be difficult to explain how peripheral muscle fatigue might exacerbate cognitive symptoms unless other cells inc brain share the same defect.

If muscle cells aren't working properly in terms of generating energy would similar effects happen in neurons?
 

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
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Location
Cornwall, UK
Yes, I am still unclear whether we have lactate data on the cultured cells. I amy be being stupid. One thing that I would be interested to know is whether they studied other things in the myocytes that gave 'negative' results - i.e. no difference. One of the worries of the current publication system is that negative results tend to get lost.

Maybe they found that there was a confounding variable that could have accounted for the lactate differential they thought they had found (or did they find such a differential at all?). Here is an earlier thread about this study, and I'm beginning to wonder if I have misremembered the lactate stuff, as I can't find it in Newton's presentation that I saved either.
 

alex3619

Senior Member
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Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
might the real-life situation be simply - or mainly - due to a lack of vasodilation due to insufficient nitric oxide due to insufficient NOS activity? This could lead to inadequate blood supply to the tissues, and thus insufficient oxygen delivered for oxidative phosphorylation to proceed normally?

Low blood volume could also contribute to this insufficiency of blood/oxygen supply to tissues, as could impaired cardiac function.
Yes, two valid possibilities that need to be ruled out. Hence I want to know about in vitro lactate.
 

alex3619

Senior Member
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13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
If muscle cells aren't working properly in terms of generating energy would similar effects happen in neurons?
Anyone up for a brain biopsy? Its very likely this is the case, but it does not have to be. Suppose, for example, the real deficit is in endothelial lining of the blood vessels. Those vessels perfuse the brain. If they are defective then the brain tissue they are associated with is likely to be defective. All major blood vessels also have a layer of muscle around them, smooth muscle not voluntary muscle.
 

user9876

Senior Member
Messages
4,556
Anyone up for a brain biopsy? Its very likely this is the case, but it does not have to be. Suppose, for example, the real deficit is in endothelial lining of the blood vessels. Those vessels perfuse the brain. If they are defective then the brain tissue they are associated with is likely to be defective. All major blood vessels also have a layer of muscle around them, smooth muscle not voluntary muscle.

I've not got through the full thread yet but my thought was is there something particular in muscle cells due to the way energy is used to contract rather than other cells say neurons where energy is used to fire across a synapse. Wouldn't issues with energy production issues hit a wide range of cells?
 

Simon

Senior Member
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Monmouth, UK
Excess lactate in mecfs patients
Yes, I am still unclear whether we have lactate data on the cultured cells. I amy be being stupid. One thing that I would be interested to know is whether they studied other things in the myocytes that gave 'negative' results - i.e. no difference. One of the worries of the current publication system is that negative results tend to get lost.

In 2013 Action for ME videos Julia Newton and her team talked about excess lactate production in cell cutlure, so maybe this is data yet to come. From my write up:
Action for M.E. | Research | Laboratory muscle gym
Finally, the team turned their attention to the acidosis seen in the MRI muscle work. But first they had to find a way to measure acid within the cells. To do this they developed a pioneering system of nanosensors, tiny molecules that could be inserted inside the muscle cells, and light up at different acidity (pH).

Early results show that acidosis – too much acid – occurs in M.E. patients’ muscle in the lab, just as it did in the muscles of the same M.E. patients when they exercised in MRI studies. Now that is an exciting result. But there’s more.

At this point I’m afraid we need to look in a little more detail at how cells generate energy. As some will remember from biology at school (I didn’t!), glucose is first converted to a molecule called pyruvate, which is centre-stage in this story.

Normally, pyruvate is used by the mitochondria (the dynamos of the cell) to produce energy as well as carbon dioxide, burning up oxygen in the process: this is why we breathe in oxygen and breathe out carbon dioxide. Not only does this ‘aerobic’ activity generate a lot of energy, it also doesn’t generate acid.

However, the other possibility is for pyruvate to be converted to lactic acid – and too much lactic acid leads to acidosis. You also get very little energy out of the lactic acid route, and oxygen isn’t needed: it is called anaerobic energy production.

Not much energy

Prof Newton’s team think that in M.E., too much pyruvate gets turned to lactic acid and not enough gets burned cleanly by mitochondria. The result is not much energy, acidosis and consequent fatigue – which could explain a lot about M.E.

But why is this happening? It seems that in M.E. muscles, a key molecule (called PDK [Pyruvate dehydrogenase kinase]) is too active, which sends more pyruvate down the lactic acid pathway leading to acidosis and muscle dysfunction.
At that time they saw the muscle cell culture as a drug testing system, targeting PDK. Maybe they are planning to publish this in a future paper.

However, it's odd that glucose consumption doesn't increase in patient if glucose is indeed being burnt to pyruvate and then lactate (but not ending up being used aerobically in mitchondria)
The lactic acid cycle runs off pyruvate, not glucose specifically.
The primary driver is glycolysis. It is hard to see how a lot of lactate could be produced by any other method. If lactate is increased then where is it coming from?
Yup.

The previous MRI spectroscopy approach seems to me much more practical - and also a much more direct indication of what is going on in real life. Maybe now that there are these data from the cultures they can go back and look at related changes with MRIS.
IF the primary defect does turn out to be in muscle cells, the ability to study muscles cells grown outside the body, and away from the influence of eg autonomic factors, cytokines or autoantibodies, could prove a new and very valuable research tool to use alongside others. I think the 'real life' studies eg using CPET and MRI are valuale too, but it may be the combinatioin of different techniques that helps nail the problem. Though first we need replication on a bigger scale of the muscle culture approach.

Gina Rutherford on PDK and lactosis in muscle culture cells:
 

Marco

Grrrrrrr!
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If muscle cells aren't working properly in terms of generating energy would similar effects happen in neurons?

As @alex3619 said it's possible but not necessary.

As an aside I was taken by a paper I recently read that suggested that the immune system may have originally been 'intended' to respond to endogenous signals of cellular stress and that the immune response was later 'hi-jacked' by exogenous pathogens.

This makes sense from an evolutionary perspective where simple marine organisms for example needed to respond to salinity gradients etc. I've always been a little suspicious also of explanations for sickness behaviour where fatigue and immobility were supposed to preserve energy to fight infection of prevent the spread of infections to others. The latter seems a little altruistic to me as direct kin are likely to already be infected due to proximity.

Immobility though does seem incompatible with the need to escape (eg salinity gradients) but then the first response of sickness behaviour is to move to a place of safety.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0952791500001916

Which is a long winded way of suggesting we shouldn't underestimate cellular stress.
 

Sidereal

Senior Member
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4,856
LPS upregulates pyruvate dehydrogenase kinase causing an inhibition of the pyruvate dehydrogenase complex and rise in lactate. Another similarity between ME/CFS and sepsis.
 

Bob

Senior Member
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England (south coast)
A note from Julia Newton's team on Facebook about the lactic acid issue:
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1097631466929847&id=526359017390431
It took a long time to get there ... but here at last is the first of the muscle papers. The paper can be downloaded for free from the website link below. People are commenting on the lactic acid work. We are looking at this using another method currently so anticipate that there will be further studies published. This paper represents a lot of experiments some which the journal asked for additionally hence why it took a long time to get into press.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0122982

The analysis of the MRC study is now also well underway and producing some interesting and exciting results.