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A week and a half after starting B12.... feel terrible!

caledonia

Senior Member
Yes, the lower you go the slower it gets. 10% of 20mg is much higher that 10% of 100. So I'm guessing you spread it out over a longer length? With my Valium taper, I asked for liquid V. I add 1 ml( which Is equivalent to 1 mg) to 99 ml of water so I have 100 ml of solution. Right now I'm tapering from 3 mg V. So I take a 2 mg tablet and reduce the liquid by .01 mg/ml a day. It takes me roughly 3 months to taper 1 mg. It's going to take me even longer the lower I get. At 2 mg I'll probably reduce by .005 ml/day. This has serve me well, knock on wood. I've found that healing is not linear so you never know when you're going to be hit. I still need to taper from Paxil, Trazadone, and Gabapentin. When I think about it I feel totally overwhelmed.

10% of 100mg = 10mg
10% of 20mg = 2mg

So it's the opposite of what you said. You keep the length of time between reductions the same.
I'll send you a taper schedule you can customize for your meds.

Yes, I messaged them twice without any success.

Correction, I went back and checked - the info I put in the signature box did show up after all.
Hopefully a mod will respond eventually - looks like they're volunteers.
 

Jimbo39

Senior Member
Messages
405
Location
San Deigo, CA
So it's the opposite of what you said. You keep the length of time between reductions the same.
I'll send you a taper schedule you can customize for your meds.

You're right, duh. As long as you're tapering 10% of your remaining dose you should be ok. Many people continue tapering at, for example, 10 mg/mo while their dosage is being reduced and that's when they get into trouble. I was surfing SA and found a link to Safe Harbors. I typed in psychiatrist , San Diego, and found what looks like a good doc, familiar with tapering ADs and adding herbal supports. Time to fire my idiot doc.

I've been feeling light headed and my heart seems to be pounding more at night so maybe my cuts are coming back to bite me. It's hard to tell because I'm so messed up. I've hardly had any depression for the last 4 months which is weird.
 

caledonia

Senior Member
You're right, duh. As long as you're tapering 10% of your remaining dose you should be ok. Many people continue tapering at, for example, 10 mg/mo while their dosage is being reduced and that's when they get into trouble. I was surfing SA and found a link to Safe Harbors. I typed in psychiatrist , San Diego, and found what looks like a good doc, familiar with tapering ADs and adding herbal supports. Time to fire my idiot doc.

I've been feeling light headed and my heart seems to be pounding more at night so maybe my cuts are coming back to bite me. It's hard to tell because I'm so messed up. I've hardly had any depression for the last 4 months which is weird.

What happens is your cortisol goes high. So you get agitation, anxiety and that sort of thing. So heart pounding and no depression seems to fit in with that. Relora to lower cortisol was very helpful for me. (Get an adrenal saliva test first to confirm before messing with things that lower cortisol.)
 

caledonia

Senior Member
Thank you for this. I wonder if a liquid taper might be easier? Have you ever thought about doing a cross over to Prozac?

I've heard of people switching to liquid when the pills become too tiny to cut and weigh. Some SSRI's come in liquid, or you might be able to fake it by crushing up the pill and dissolving it in a certain amount of water, then drinking a measured portion of the water.

I've seen discussions about doing a crossover to Prozac, but I think results on that are mixed or are a crapshoot. It don't think it would be a good idea for me, so I've never really considered it. One drug is bad enough - :eek:
 

Jimbo39

Senior Member
Messages
405
Location
San Deigo, CA
What happens is your cortisol goes high. So you get agitation, anxiety and that sort of thing. So heart pounding and no depression seems to fit in with that. Relora to lower cortisol was very helpful for me. (Get an adrenal saliva test first to confirm before messing with things that lower cortisol.)

I'm brain dead today so excuse any typos or what not.. Relora sounds pretty good. I get these toxic dreams that jolt me awake. I used to be a mailman and my dreams are usually about me getting lost on my route or running someone over and stuff like that. So weird. I did get an adrenal salvia test. It's posted on the adrenal function thread. Second one from the top. @Chocolove was very healpful but never got any consensus of whether it was high or not. My doc (the one I fired ) said they were "shot".
 

Jimbo39

Senior Member
Messages
405
Location
San Deigo, CA
I've seen discussions about doing a crossover to Prozac, but I think results on that are mixed or are a crapshoot. It don't think it would be a good idea for me, so I've never really considered it. One drug is bad enough - :eek:

I agree. I read about someone saying the devil you knowis better than the one you dont or something to that effect. Are you just tapering one med? I'm asking because I wonder if it's ok to taper multiple meds?
 

caledonia

Senior Member
I'm brain dead today so excuse any typos or what not.. Relora sounds pretty good. I get these toxic dreams that jolt me awake. I used to be a mailman and my dreams are usually about me getting lost on my route or running someone over and stuff like that. So weird. I did get an adrenal salvia test. It's posted on the adrenal function thread. Second one from the top. @Chocolove was very healpful but never got any consensus of whether it was high or not. My doc (the one I fired ) said they were "shot".

I looked at your test - if I'm reading it correctly these are the results:

morning - low
midday- normal
afternoon - normal
evening - high

So it's like the third graph on this page: http://drsaulmarcus.com/fatigue/cortisolsalivatest.html

They don't look at all like my results under withdrawal, which were all extremely high. My normal results not under withdrawal are all low. So you have kind of mixed results.

The high one in the evening could be messing with sleep. Could be useful to do one or more calming supplements in the evening to help with sleep. Magnesium, Kavinace, melatonin, etc.

You may be leaking out electrolytes and replacing those can be very helpful - things like magnesium, potassium and sodium. If you're craving salt or salty foods, that's a sign of low sodium. Things like heart palps and muscle twitches, leg cramps, restless legs, etc. are signs of magnesium and/or potassium deficiency. I take those four times a day because they leak out so fast. I only do salt if I'm going through some extra stress and am craving salt.

For the morning, some people do well with the traditional type supplements - adrenal cortex extract and the like. I don't - they're all too overstimulating. If I get in a long term stressful situation, I've found that Dr. Wilson's Adrenal Rebuilder is gentle enough for me to tolerate. I use only a fraction of a pill or even that gets too stimulating.

I believe the ultimate reason behind my adrenal fatigue is metal toxicity, particularly mercury. I'm just getting started with Andrew Cutler frequent dose chelation to get my mercury out. My adrenals have gotten about 50% better just from getting my last mercury amalgam out a few years ago.
 

caledonia

Senior Member
I agree. I read about someone saying the devil you knowis better than the one you dont or something to that effect. Are you just tapering one med? I'm asking because I wonder if it's ok to taper multiple meds?

I've already tapered off clonazepam, so I'm working on just Zoloft - thankfully, that's the only med I'm on.

I found this thread on Surviving AD: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1070-taper-more-than-one-drug-at-a-time/

It looks like the conventional way to do it is one at at time, but there is a lady successfully doing five at one time and going extremely slowly with it. She's been tapering since 2010.
 

Jimbo39

Senior Member
Messages
405
Location
San Deigo, CA
@caledonia It does look like my graph. It's all upside down. No wonder my circadian rhythm is all messed up. What would cause such a surge at night, other than a magnesium and potassium deficiency?

During my meltdown, I'm sure I was in the same boat. Literally no sleep. Out of desperation, doc prescribed Trazadone. Tho now I have another narc to taper off of. Ugg.

Just got a big jar of Now potassium glyconate. Will start it ASAP. I'm going to Sprouts so I'll pick up some magnesium.
 

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Jimbo39

Senior Member
Messages
405
Location
San Deigo, CA
I've already tapered off clonazepam, so I'm working on just Zoloft - thankfully, that's the only med I'm on.

Good on you! It must be such a relief.


She makes a lot of sense. All the drugs we take are working together to creat one super drug so why shouldn't we taper them together. Maybe it's just wishful thinking. If I taper separately I'll be an old man. On the other hand...maybe it's best to have a better quality of life while tapering? I really haven't had any w/d sxs, other than minor insomnia.
 

caledonia

Senior Member
@caledonia It does look like my graph. It's all upside down. No wonder my circadian rhythm is all messed up. What would cause such a surge at night, other than a magnesium and potassium deficiency?

During my meltdown, I'm sure I was in the same boat. Literally no sleep. Out of desperation, doc prescribed Trazadone. Tho now I have another narc to taper off of. Ugg.

Just got a big jar of Now potassium glyconate. Will start it ASAP. I'm going to Sprouts so I'll pick up some magnesium.

I'm not really sure what causes the rise at night other than it's just part of having adrenal fatigue. Dr. Lam talks about the various stages of adrenal fatigue, and one of the more severe ones has the rise at night where your cycle is more or less reversed. I've had that too.

The mag and potass supplementation is just to replace what's being lost. Your adrenals help regulate electrolyte levels. So when they're not working well, the electrolytes leak out instead of being retained. Then you start getting muscle twitches, cramps, restless legs, etc.

You could be twitching your legs or feet all night long, semi waking you up dozens of times a night. You're sleeping so you're not aware of it. This is one reason people wake up not feeling refreshed. I had this and had no idea until a sleep study caught it.

The mag especially helps a lot. I'm taking almost 1800mg total for the day, which is a huge amount. Most people are good with something in the 300-800mg range.

As for potassium, I was taking 3000mg the first few years of methylation supplements as that requires potassium for cell rebuilding. Now I take 50mg.

Take it easy, especially with the potassium, as it can affect heart rhythms. Start low and increase gradually over many days. There should be a sweet spot where you feel the best.
 

caledonia

Senior Member
Good on you! It must be such a relief.
She makes a lot of sense. All the drugs we take are working together to creat one super drug so why shouldn't we taper them together. Maybe it's just wishful thinking. If I taper separately I'll be an old man. On the other hand...maybe it's best to have a better quality of life while tapering? I really haven't had any w/d sxs, other than minor insomnia.

That's what I was thinking - some of these drugs take so many years you might be really old or even dead before you're done tapering. On the other hand, can you manage weighing and cutting multiple different pills into tiny doses, and their reduction calculations without making any mistakes?

It takes me about 30-40 minutes to make up my pills for the week, which doesn't sound too bad, but I can only concentrate for so long. My back starts hurting from bending over and so on. Then multiply that by 3 or 4 or however many you're taking.

You should be able to figure it out with the taper schedule I posted. The higher the dose you start with, the longer it takes.

As far as withdrawals, (let's say you were taking 4 drugs), I'm not sure if the withdrawals would be as bad as only taking one drug (because it acts like a superdrug) or would it multiply and be four times worse?

That lady seems to be tolerating it ok, so maybe it's not four times worse?
 

Jimbo39

Senior Member
Messages
405
Location
San Deigo, CA
one of the more severe ones has the rise at night where your cycle is more or less reversed. I've had that too.

That sucks. I guess I need to add adrenal support.

You could be twitching your legs or feet all night long, semi waking you up dozens of times a night. You're sleeping so you're not aware of it. This is one reason people wake up not feeling refreshed.

I consciously wake up about 2-3 times a night. I hope by adding potassium and magnesium it'll stop the twitching. I wonder if part of the reason for the spike in cortisol at night is the lack of melatonin production because of a poorly functioning BH4 cycle?



Take it easy, especially with the potassium, as it can affect heart rhythms.

This sounds scary. So if you take too much does your heart start beating irregularly? There's 750 mg in a half teaspoon of Now's potassium glyconate powder so ill gradually increase it.
 

Jimbo39

Senior Member
Messages
405
Location
San Deigo, CA
That's what I was thinking - some of these drugs take so many years you might be really old or even dead before you're done tapering

I know. I'm 60 now so what's the point?

It takes me about 30-40 minutes to make up my pills for the week, which doesn't sound too bad, but I can only concentrate for so long.

With liquid it's a breeze. It takes me about 5 minutes. I have a chart on the wall that tells me the amount to reduce each day.

As far as withdrawals, (let's say you were taking 4 drugs), I'm not sure if the withdrawals would be as bad as only taking one drug (because it acts like a superdrug) or would it multiply and be four times worse?

This is the million dollar question.
 

caledonia

Senior Member
This sounds scary. So if you take too much does your heart start beating irregularly? There's 750 mg in a half teaspoon of Now's potassium glyconate powder so ill gradually increase it.

I take the same stuff (assuming you mean Now potassium gluconate). 1/64 tsp four times a day is 50mg.
Maybe start there or with 100mg per day. That's why they limit pills to 99mg.

My overdose symptoms are more like feeling toxic/nauseous. Maybe metallic taste too, can't quite remember.
If I'm low in potass or get too much mag relative to potass, I get deficiency symptoms - bouts of rapid heartbeat with anxiety, maybe ringing in the ears.

If I get too much mag, I get loose stools (i.e. diarrhea). I can also feel toxic/nauseous/metallic taste. So I gradually work up to that point, then back off a bit. Even at those doses, I still have some foot twitching, but it's quelled enough that I feel like I'm rested when I wake up instead of being constantly sleep deprived.