A plug for muscle testing

[Hip]

It’s helped me countless times in figuring out what the heck was going on

Has your muscle testing ever detected a health condition that was later verified by a standard medical test?

 

[Mary]

Has your muscle testing ever detected a health condition that was later verified by a standard medical test?

Good question, @Hip. The thing is, I've generally had to resort to muscle testing when standard medical tests don't show a problem - e.g., the problem with my ileocecal valve I described above, where I did see a doctor first, but he was unable to help me. Or when I've been low in potassium - my potassium levels always show low-normal on blood work but I've had horrible fatigue from low potassium. I'm sure you've seen Richvank's post on why people with ME/CFS often have low intracellular potassium despite normal blood work. No doctor ever picked up on this issue or suggested that my intracellular potassium levels be checked.

I don't have a doctor who will run frequent nutritional testing as needed (e.g., checking my phosphorous levels as needed when starting something new). Learner1 has posted several times about extensive testing she's had done - but it's not available to me.

You'll note in my initial post that I state I'm not recommending people do MT instead of seeing their doctor and getting blood work done. But when they reach a dead end with their doctors and standard blood work, which is all too common, I suggest they might give it a try.

When my adrenals were first found by my chiropractor to be weak (for lack of a better term) or I had adrenal fatigue or however it is supposed to be characterized, this was in the mid to late 1990's - there was very little information available for patients then about adrenal issues or ME/CFS. When I complained to my doctor about fatigue, he gave me Prozac. I tolerated it for 2 days. That was the quality of health care I had. I wasn't anemic so I must be depressed. So when my chiropractor said my adrenals were wiped out, I'd never even heard of problems with the adrenals before. It was all new to me. But he had been helpful already with several digestive issues so I took the adrenal glandular he gave me, and was amazed when a few days later my energy started to return. So I didn't go back to my doctor for more help with this. There was no point.

Detoxing was a huge issue for me for many years. And I'm sure you know the standard mainstream position on this - that detoxing doesn't exist and our livers are well able to clear toxins from our bodies. At one time 2 glasses of wine would make me sick for 2 -3 days. Well by this point i'd learned not to see my doctor for any issues like this. There was no point. But muscle testing helped me with a liver detox and various supplements which got my liver working much better and I can now have a couple of glasses of wine with no problem.

So I guess the answer to your question is no. If issues showed up on standard medical tests, then the doctor believed they were real and would deal with them - e.g., my high MCV. But you know how so many times our blood work is normal and yet we feel like crap. But the response of doctors is we're depressed, or need to exercise, etc.

The majority of our problems with ME/CFS don't show up on standard testing - so the doctors send us home. And this is where MT has been of the most help for me.

 

[CedarHome]

Hmmm... Did the Lyme vial cure you?

Well... so far it has made me sleep all day and added joint pain.... which has not been the prevalent pattern lately. So it kicked something into gear.

I try to explain to my boss... Yes I'm slowly treating this.. and every treatment is basically too weird or convoluted to explain ...AND means I miss more work... but it's a good thing because I seem to be getting better, right?

 

[Learner1]

Well... so far it has made me sleep all day and added joint pain.... which has not been the prevalent pattern lately. So it kicked something into gear.

That sounds interesting...

I try to explain to my boss... Yes I'm slowly treating this.. and every treatment is basically too weird or convoluted to explain ...AND means I miss more work... but it's a good thing because I seem to be getting better, right?

Explaining to bosses is tricky... I keep to the minimum - immune system dysfunction and treatment...

 

[Mary]

@Hip - I should clarify my answer above. There have been many times I've seen the chiropractor for sinus infections, which at one time I had almost constantly - every time I crash I get sick and used to get a lot sicker for a lot longer. I could have gone to the doctor for antibiotics, my sinus infections were quite obvious, but was trying to avoid taking them as much as possible and wanted to see if there other less damaging remedies available. Though sometimes I would go to the doctor and get ABX. On the whole the things suggested by the chiropractor for my sinuses were not that helpful. Eventually I discovered andrographis which has been amazing for me, I get much less sick and recover much quicker than before.

Anyways, these sinus infections were something picked up both by the chiropractor and standard medical testing.

 

[Hip]

The basic issue with muscle testing is that there is no mechanism known to physics, chemistry or biology by which a substance in a sealed vial could affect the body (unless of course that substance is radioactive and emitting radiation).

So the whole concept of muscle testing (applied kinesiology) has no plausible cause-and-effect basis. Practitioners claim that substances in sealed vials can affect muscle strength, but for that to be the case, there would need to be a physical mechanism by which that works.

For example, my TV remote control has an effect on my TV, but we know that works via the medium of infrared light, emitted by the remote control and carrying a message. But for substances in sealed vials, there is no known medium by which it could remotely affect the body in this sort of way.

Thus even at the outset, it is highly implausible that muscle testing could work. So it is not surprising then that there is no scientific evidence of muscle testing being able in practice to diagnose medical conditions. This study for example showed that muscle testing could not detect a substance in a vial that is inimical to life (a poison).



Of course, that does not mean that practitioners who use muscle testing are not helpful. Such practitioners have their own perceptions, and may make intuitive general observations on you that leads them to suggest possible ailments that you might have.

 

[Mary]

@Hip - I think we are in the dark ages as regards medicine and our understanding of how the human body works. Extremely toxic chemicals which destroy the immune system are used to "treat" cancer, etc. etc. and doctors who don't do this are punished. Drugs with horrible side effects are handed out routinely (e.g., statins). The medical profession knows so little about restoring health, and is not open in general to things which don't fit into the model of giving prescription drugs. It's sort of like ME/CFS - the medical profession "knew" for years and years that it was all in our heads so almost no money was spent on research. I think the same model could easily apply to the dearth of information available about muscle testing.

Just because we don't know how something works doesn't mean it doesn't work. We know so little. Others would argue that there are mechanisms which explain muscle testing. It may get into the realm of quantum physics (about which I've read that if someone claims to understand it, they don't) but I don't want to debate this with you. We've done it before. It's not just a lucky guess or intuition on the part of the practitioner. I explained to you once how he picked up on a chronic problem with my right kidney that he had no way of ascertaining from appearances or my reactions. No, I can't explain it to your satisfaction, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Also, when I'm referring to MT, I'm talking about 2 different applications - one has to do with testing substances, whether they're good or not for the body and how much to take, which you are taking issue with, and the other is direct testing done on the body - pressing various points generally located on acupuncture meridians and associated with various organs or systems and seeing if one's arm (or other muscles) go weak or strong when pressing on that point, thus helping to identify weaknesses in the body. I don't know what you think about this second application.

Anyways, my point in this thread was not to "prove" that MT works but rather to give my experience in the hope that it might help someone else.

I'm sure you know about Dr. Semmelweis who discovered that puerperal (or childbed) fever which killed thousands of women each year was caused by doctors failing to wash their hands. A doctor would examine a diseased cadaver and then go deliver babies without washing his hands. And mothers would die. Dr. Semmelweis was ostracized, ridiculed etc by the medical profession because he did not have a scientific explanation for why failing to wash hands caused this. Thousands of women continued to die each year for many years until Louis Pasteur developed his germ theory and it was confirmed by Joseph Lister. The point of this story? We know so little when we think we know so much. Just because something cannot be explained by our current level of knowledge doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

 

[Hip]

Just because we don't know how something works doesn't mean it doesn't work.

Something can work even though we don't know how it works; but, if it does work, there will be empirical evidence of it working.

I'm sure you know about Dr. Semmelweis who discovered that puerperal

I do, and even though his theory sounded highly implausible in his day, Semmelweis still followed the scientific method and empirically tested his theories: he made the doctors wash their hands and their medical instruments before delivering babies, and then observed that the mortality rate of mothers substantially dropped in his ward, thus providing empirical evidence to support his theory.

If a theory is correct, there will be effects that can be measured empirically. But I have not seen any empirical evidence for muscle testing working.

 

[Hip]

Also, when I'm referring to MT, I'm talking about 2 different applications - one has to do with testing substances, whether they're good or not for the body and how much to take, which you are taking issue with, and the other is direct testing done on the body - pressing various points generally located on acupuncture meridians and associated with various organs or systems and seeing if one's arm (or other muscles) go weak or strong when pressing on that point, thus helping to identify weaknesses in the body. I don't know what you think about this second application.

I don't know much about this side of muscle testing, so can't really comment, unless I spent a lot of time reading all about it first.

 

[Mary]

Hi @Hip - here's a definition of empirical from Merriam Webster:

originating in or based on observation or experience

I'm basing everything I've written on my experience - I've never claimed to use the scientific method - but that doesn't mean it's not real. We all experienced gravity before we knew what it was and it was experiencing the effects of gravity which led Newton to make his discoveries. He knew the effects of gravity were real, though he didn't initially have science to back it up. So it's possible MT could lead to new scientific discoveries.

I was thinking - you experiment a lot on yourself with various substances and protocols (I know you do a ton of research and are very well-informed before trying these things). Anyways, I was wondering, why not give MT a try and see what happens? You could pay someone to do it or even try it yourself, though I always recommend a person first have it done by someone knowledgeable.

But - you'd have to approach it with an open mind. Your thoughts and feelings can affect the results - I know, not scientific in the usual sense, but that's the way it is. If someone feels strongly that it's a crock, it probably won't work. And the person doing the testing also has to keep a neutral fame of mind. One possible explanation for this is quantum mechanics, which posits that just the very act of observing something changes it: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/02/980227055013.htm

When I started this thread, I promised myself I wouldn't get into discussions about whether MT worked or not - I have no way to "prove" it to anyone's satisfaction, apart from my own experience, and it takes a lot of energy going back and forth. But here I am anyways - But I'll probably drop it for now.

 

[Hip]

Anyways, I was wondering, why not give MT a try and see what happens? You could pay someone to do it or even try it yourself, though I always recommend a person first have it done by someone knowledgeable.

I am not myself interested in testing this, but since you are familiar with muscle testing yourself and have a muscle testing practitioner, there is a very easy way that you could test it, which is the following:

Just take a few dozen supplements or drugs that you know are either beneficial for your ME/CFS, or that are bad for your ME/CFS. Then get someone else to place one pill of each medication in a set of small jars (or set of small envelopes) labelled 1, 2, 3,.. etc, with only that person knowing which medication is in each jar or envelope. You yourself and the chiropractor doing muscle testing should have no idea which pill is in which jar/envelop, and should not be able to see or feel the pill in the jar/envelop.

So now you can do muscle testing on each jar/envelop one by one, and see if you can detect and distinguish the beneficial medications from the bad medications. Muscle testing claims to be able to detect beneficial versus non-beneficial substances, so therefore this test should be a walk in the park to do, if muscle testing really works.

 

[Hip]

But - you'd have to approach it with an open mind. Your thoughts and feelings can affect the results - I know, not scientific in the usual sense, but that's the way it is.

I think one way that you could look at your experiences with muscle testing, is not so much whether it works or not, but rather as a technique to tap your intuitive and unconscious mind.

Years ago I used to do lots of mindfulness meditation, which I always found improves intuition and access to unconscious info. During and after meditation, I would find lots of creative or lateral-thinking ideas would pop into my conscious awareness, and I found meditation would allow me to make valuable connections between things I had never previously linked together.

We are all used to using out rational thinking conscious mind when we approach situations or issues; but the more profound insights and understandings seem to be formulated in our unconscious mind. These insights will then often randomly pop into conscious awareness, typically during a moment of relaxation. We have no awareness of how this unconscious processing of information occurs our the brain; the only time we have awareness of it is when a new insight suddenly pops into awareness.

Nowadays with brain fog, I don't seem to be able meditate in the way used to; however, I do find these days that a long hot bath will often relax my mind enough to allow ideas and insights formulated in my unconscious to emerge into consciousness. As I am always reading lots about medical research and medical treatments, my brain is filled with this info every day; but I often find it's not until I relax in a nice hot bath that connections between things that my unconscious mind has made will suddenly pop into awareness.

I have heard several scientists say that some of their best ideas and insights appear during their relaxing baths! So we know that our unconscious brain is aways working away, making connections between things, and providing deeper insights and understandings; but sometimes it takes a moment of relaxation or meditative calm for these insights to percolate up from the unconscious, and appear in our conscious awareness; or it takes a technique like meditation to help you tap into your intuitive unconscious mind and retrieve its insights.

So if you look at muscle testing as a technique that relaxes your mind and promotes intuition, and from that technique, some interesting insights appear, then I can appreciate that.

 

[Mary]

Hi @Hip - I still don't agree with you as to how muscle testing works, but you make some good points! My subconscious does seem to work very hard trying to help me. I'll have a particular problem and worry about it for a little while and then set it aside, and then often a few hours later, or even a day or 2, a solution will pop into mind. I'm always grateful when this happens

 

[Wolfcub]

The thing I seem to glean from this @Mary is that yes -it's not really "scientific", cannot be properly assessed in a scientific way at al! !
So I can completely understand why a group like Quackwatch would be biased against it.

Yet.... if it is a method by which someone can attune to their intuition and body awareness then I can somehow see why it could work.

Subconsciously we know an awful lot more about what's going on for our unique selves than we realise. We are not as helpless as we are conditioned to believe we are. No we don't know that with the conscious mind but it is possibly and under certain circumstances, accessible awareness.

I have walked around a neighbour's garden with two copper rods, water dowsing....just for fun! The rods crossed in certain places and not in others.
I was told after I'd finished my adventures those were the places where water supply and drainage pipes ran. I had not the faintest clue where those drainage systems/water pipes were.
Dowsing with rods is not scientific either -but it works (for some I presume. It might not work for everyone....I don't know.)

 

[Hufsamor]

@Mary
Good of you to stick your neck out

First time I got muscle testing was not impressive at all.
The results was completely wrong.

But many, many years later I tried again.
And she asked me those true and false questions,
and my body reacted completely wrong.
So she made me do some easy exercises first.
And this time, I got correct results.

So I agree, don't start on your own, by learning through internet videos.
And don't use it for really important questions,
it's not a 100% accurate tool.
But very helpful indeed, when used properly.

(Blood testing is not a 100% accurate either.
It shows the level in your blood, but that's it.
You can be short in vitamins, even if the blood test turns out ok.
Or you can react to food, even if it doesn't show on the allergy test.
But each tool is good for its own use,
one just have to remember its limitations)

 

[Mary]

The thing I seem to glean from this @Mary is that yes -it's not really "scientific", cannot be properly assessed in a scientific way at al! !

Actually I think some day when our science catches up, we may be able to test it in a "scientific" way. From what I've read, MT works using principles of acupuncture and energy meridians, so it's not really the subconscious. But I don't want to argue this with anyone. For one, I can't. I don't have enough knowledge. All I can say it has worked for me dozens of times, when mainstream medicine was helpless. And it's never harmed me.

But it does have its limitations of course, and you have to know what you're doing.

Interesting about the dowsing! I have a lot more trouble making sense of that than MT! To me it makes sense that my body would go weak in the presence of a toxin or other substance which was harmful to my body. hmmm . . . dowsing though - I can't think of an explanation for that! (though there might be one . . .)

 

[Hufsamor]

Has your muscle testing ever detected a health condition that was later verified by a standard medical test?

Ah, by the way....
Yes!
It's so many years ago, I had completely forgotten...

My arm revealed that I shouldn't eat wheat.
(I don't think she tested against gluten,
It was more basic stuff...like wheat, apples, orange, that kind of things)

But no test by the doctor told the same,
and I tried to live without wheat for a week but didn't think it helped at all.

But later, a stool test by a private doctor (a real doctor, but not covered by Norwegian health system) revealed antibodies against gluten.
And I learned that it takes months for the gluten to leave the body, so one week of diet wouldn't help at all.

 

[Wayne]

I learned that it takes months for the gluten to leave the body, so one week of diet wouldn't help at all.

@Hufsamor -- I would think it would take months for the gut to heal itself as well, after being subjected to the adverse effects of gluten exposure for so long.

 

[Mary]

FWIW, this website has an explanation for how muscle testing works: https://www.crawellness.com/about/

I haven't posted it before because I didn't want to debate this - I don't have the energy for debates like that, and as I stated above, I know it's helped me, a lot. So if someone thinks the explanation in the website doesn't make sense, well, that's fine. But this might be illuminating for someone else.

 

[ChrisD]

I’ve just had muscle testing done last week in the form of Klinghardts Autonomic response testing. The methodology is scientifically absurd and I’m inclined to not believe it because it just doesn’t makes sense to me in anyway but I wanted to give it a go because of word of mouth.

In ART they are actually using two practitioners with the second acting as an unconscious unbiased vessel for the energy in the patients body - so the muscle testing is done using their arm. It’s completely Wild and there are so many variables that scientifically there cannot be any degree of accuracy I would have thought.

BUT they picked up a number of symptoms that I had not even mentioned to them before and could specifically locate pain or stiffness, for example in my eyes when looking in a certain direction. So this was very freaky and at the least kept my mind open.