International ME/CFS and FM Awareness Day Is On May 12, 2018
Thomas Hennessy, Jr., selected May 12th to be our international awareness day back in 1992. He knew that May 12th had also been the birthday of Florence Nightingale. She was the English army nurse who helped to found the Red Cross as well as the first school of nursing in the world.
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Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Freddd, Feb 15, 2012.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Salt Lake City
    I am going to attempt describing what happens upon starting a b12 and folate treatment program for situtions involving partial methylation block and mitochondrial malfunction. The cause of breakdown of these cycles can be varied, from actual lack of required substances to stressors suh as viruses, bacteria, surgery, traumatic injury, vaccines, dental procedures, poor absorbtion, gastirc surgery, genetics and no doubt other triggers. The breakdown follows a similar self sustaining path regardless of original cause with the interweaving of lack of several substances in brain and body, viewed as largly separate compartments.

    I am detailing the active b12 protocol because of greater familarity. I went through it. However, many of the same effects also happen with the simplified methylation protocol though not on the same time scale.

    Version 1.0, 02/15/12

    DAY 1 - Basics started, mb12 started, often folic acid, folinic acid and/or methylfolate-

    Sudden headache with 50 point rise in blood pressure can be casued by CoQ10.

    Starting in 5 minutes after mb12 goes under lip or tongue. Brightening of all perceptions and energy. Intense awareness of all pain. I could feel everything wrong with my body with extreme clarity like never before. I could feel all the numb and damaged areas of my nervous system This is basic nervous system intensification and/or the beginning of ATP startup. Multi sensory hallucinations present may intensify, change or go away, sometmes all within hours. Some researchers indicate as many as 600 processes are attempting to start up. How to reboot the body and brain in this way is new territiory. Just as with Apollo 13, nobody knew how to do a startup of the command module with limited resources. My solution is make sure all resources needed are present or available. There will be one "stall" from induced deficiency after another. The biggest hazard is that the person may feel so good and full of energy that they go out and dance all night and crash the next day. Their capacity is no greater than the day before. Exercise has to be worked up to slowly after much healing has occurred.

    DAY 3 or after- Certain symptoms intensify or are new. Almost everybody has an experience with low potassium. Generally it starts with mild symptoms that can get worse quickly. Low potassium if severe enough long enough can cause death. The problem is that when there is a high demand on the potassium from healing serum potassium may look pretty normal and yet people often have trouble at 4.2-4.3 or less, well above the "low" mark of 3.5 they might look for in the ER. A 500mg dose, powdered mix (usually potassium chloride) in drink works well or potassium supplement tablets, NOT CHLORIDE, with a large glass of water will work well. A salt substitute from the supermarket that is potassium chloride will work. Relief from low potassium spasms and heart irregularities can correct in 15 minutes. Talk to your doctor. They can prescribe a version of the drink mix in advance. You can also order similar items OTC from vitamin retailers. Be prepared. Almost everybody who starts methylation will run into this when methylation actually starts. It has commonly been called "DETOX" and allowed to go in for months. It can be stopped in 30 minutes and needs to be treated. It may take up to 2000mg or so of potassium daily to keep it under control that needs to be taken daily as part of a regular daily program. The need can fluctuate.

    Also around day 3 or any time after, when methylation starts straining recouces, methylfolate resources are strainbed. There can be paradoxical folate deficiency type 1 (PFD1) is a folate deficiency that starts despite and becasue of folic acid presence. The same can occur with folinic acid with a varient on the genetics. This is paradoxical folate deficiency type 2 (PFD2) . A variant on PFD2 occurs with vegetable food based folate which contains enough folinic acid to block much larger amounts of Metafolin. A further varient is particular to Methylfolate itself. These reponses have all been called "detox" when they happen. Again, these symptoms can start dimminishing within hours when enough Metafolin is taken. A small amount of methylfolate can start much more methylation than it can sustain causing the appearance of folate deficiency symptoms despite taking only methylfolate and food folate which is unavoidable to a large degree. Discontinuing folic and folinic acid help considerably. Increasing the methylfolate will bring the folate deficiency symptoms down, but it takes "enough". They don't appear to decrease proportionately, but rather "on" or "off" except for the final almost there amount, and even that may be on and off alternation. The Metafolin generally becomes fully effective, if it wasn't at lower doses, somewhere between the two Deplin doses, 7.5mg to 15mg. There may be timing issues for those with veggie folate induced deficiency.

    Further there can be a similar induced folate deficiency by certain other medications, Dilantin, Metaformix, some cancer chemo drugs, and others as well a glutathione, glutathione precursors such as NAC & l-glutamine, NAC by itself, whey, and other glutathione precursors. This too is often called "detox", as in glutathione detox reaction, NAC detox response and so on. These tyically don't reverse without at least a few larger doses of metafolin and mb12 and adb12. The CNS induced b12 deficiency was sufficient from the glutathione precursors that I had substantial additional neurological damage from Subacute Combined Degeneration that hasn't healed yet, 2 years later. The induced folate deficiency from what appears to be the "methyl trap" occurs within hours of starting the glutathione with the b12 deficiencies become more appararent aver the following weeks. So people feel this lack of methylfolate as more comfortable. It can reduce neurological pain quickly and reduce the emotional churning of a reawakening nervous system. However it appears to do so at the possible cost of neurological damage if it is continued or repeated for long.

    About day 10, many epithelial tissue issues start resolving, burning bladder, tongue, rashes, IBS (if filate not deficienct), nausea may all start healing

    Neurological and Neuropsyc issues - This is the most difficult. Previously this was almost entirely ignored. The changes going down are slow. One doesn't see the mood changes, personality changes, increasing hallucinations (noise in nerves), visual problems, hearing problems, taste and olfactory problems are hardly notices. Tingles start in the hands and feet, paresthesias (senory hallucination) and get worse as the redundency disappears and the "last nerve" is becoming damaged. Feet get numb. Emotional responses are changed. Emotional processing stops. Dreams may stop. Sleeping becomes difficlty and disturbed. Outright psychosis can occur as well as anything short of psychosis. Depression and irritability become normal. When the brain starts coming back, when the nerves, peripheral and central, start healing, all of the dozens of different symptoms start shifting all at once. Things start changing, often in reverse order if order was tracked going down, it's like all thhose chnges start happening at once. Emotions can be very volitile. Moods can be all over the place. When a previously numb nerve starts coming back there are huge jolting electitcal type pains. Then this steadies out into constant pain. Then it shits to painfully intense tingles. Then to milder tingles. Then to hypersensitive touch, "frayed" feeling nerves with partial feeling and frayed "holes". Finally more or less normal feeling may return over a period of a year or so. Then something else gets added and an entire new round of healing canb start and do it all over again. Too much folate compared to a lack of methylb12 may cause an increase or onset of Subacute Combined Degeneration, bascially a central neuropathy with demyelination of nerves in the brain and cord leading to a wheelchair, psychosis, diaper and death. I don't know of any way to have the neurology heal without having all these things occur. One of the biggest signposts of healing is all these "old issues", blocked for decades, to come back. I was like Rip Van Winkle. At times I was in a mode where I was thinking of my daughter as a 6 month old baby instead of the 25 year old young adult she was now. I had all the old psychological "junk" that wasn't processed during a more than 20 year period suddenly processing. It was a kind of hell as there was absolutely nothing I could do about it or change anything except watch it go by. While I recovered some memories of that period, many of them are gone or at least not filed right to be found. When I started Metafolin I suddenly started dreaming wildly after 20 years of not dreaming.

    The items that appear to unblock healing sufficiently to cause low potassium are, in all or some situations; mb12, adb12, Metafolin, l-carnitine fumarate, Alpha Lipoic Acid, Sam-e, Zinc, Vitamin D, magnesium, Vitamin A, Vitamin C, B-complex (twice a day). There may be others.

    Muscles may not heal and regenerate until adb12 and l-carnitine fumarate are in place. Much healing may be held up until the last needed item is added. I have seen Vitamin D kick off the whole process. I have been told of Viatmin C doing so by a dentist.

    Month 6 - anything that isn't showing improvement needs to be examined as to possible reasons of hold up or consider that it is not part of this syndrome. Healing can be 25% or more complete. I don't include rehabilitation in this estimate of healing

    Around month 9-12 of healing, many drugs can be examined to see if still needed with trial withdrawal. Neurological pain can be very reduced. Exercise tolerance may have returned. I was able to start liught arobic exercise by this point and was able to work up to 17 minutes on the Nordic track but was never able to make it past that point until I added the l-carnitine fumarate. The neurological pain was down enough I could discontinue Dilantin. No more sleep disorders and Provigil. No more depression. The spasms were low enough frequency I started tapering Valium. Pain in generral was down about 90% and I was able to start tapering morphine, decreasing 40%. I now have better control of the remaining pain. The b12 changed the nature of some of the chronic pain, taking away a lot of the "ringing" and spreading pain. The muscles in my neck were healed enough that the headaches had gone away. I hadn't had to renew the Compazine suppositories for nausea. The acid gushing up my throat in the middle of the night had stopped. I still had IBS (Paradoxical folate deficiency) but most of my gastric pain and problems were gone. It took another 2 years more for my muscles to heal all the way and did not start until I started l-carnitine fumarate still a year in the future at that time. By this time, even with some paradoxical folate deficiency, I had discontinued 2400mg of Ibuprofen daily. I hadn't renewed my Albuterol or theophyline in months. I didn't need seasonal antihistamines for the first time that following summer since some time when I was in junior high back around 1960. The only 3 medications that are unchanged from 8 years ago are levothyroxin and testosterone and a diuretic which works much better than it did. Everything else was discontinued or dramatically decreased. My monthly pharmacy bill tells the story, dropping from $1500/month to about $60 a month not including vitamins over a 15 month period.

    Another signpost to healing was a change in waking and sleep patterns. When I was in the middle of the healing phase with mb12 after the strong excitatory period, perhaps a year into the process, I started getting very tired in the afternoon, naptime. That was a dramatic change becasue I hadn't felt tired in a sleepy way for almost 20 years. I had been able to discontinue the Provigil some months before as I was getting more and better sleep. I had sleep disorders. I would fall asleep at movies or at the table or sitting quietly. Being asleep was having my eyese closed, being awake was having them open. There wasn't any great difference in how I felt. I was always totally exhausted but never sleepy tired. After some months of the excitatory portion and a while of feeling pretty even keeled I noticed I get very sleepy starting in the afternoon. Over the next few months that progressed into the evening and turned out to be an integral part of my sleep normalizing. It was a dramatic difference while it happened. The difference between being asleep and awake got larger. After some years of pretty normal sleep, dreaming returned all at once the day I took my first dose of Metafolin. Others have reported that same return of dreaming. Returning to normal sleep patterns was an important part of healing. Getting quite sleepy was a signpost on the road of healing
    CJB likes this.
  2. drex13

    drex13 Senior Member

    Columbus, Ohio
    Thanks for this post. One sentence in particular caught my attention: A further varient is particular to Methylfolate itself.Can you expand on this ?

  3. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Salt Lake City
    Two sentences later - The "Donut" hole paradoxical folate defieincy with small amounts of methylfolate. It is a more ordinary induced insufficiency of a vitamin with an internal triage of necessities like b12 has.

    "A small amount of methylfolate can start much more methylation than it can sustain causing the appearance of folate deficiency symptoms despite taking only methylfolate and food folate which is unavoidable to a large degree."

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