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6 months on B12 protocol, in between rock & hard place. Then along comes glutathione.

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by picante, May 10, 2015.

  1. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    Hello methylation co-travelers, I had a rough winter. I learned a lot from all of you fine brainy people. My new update is the next post. Here's the background:

    On this thread I learn from @Valentijn about VDR Bsm and try to sort out my vitamin D: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...monia-other-problems.34225/page-2#post-531879

    This is where I give up on the B12 oils, concluding that I screwed up and should have ordered them without vitamin D: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/transdermal-b12-oils.33172/page-6#post-543742

    Here is where @Freddd solves the mystery of my inflammation triggered by riboflavin: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/no-love-of-b2-here-a-warning-about-riboflavin.31639/page-3#post-551003

    This is my clearest statement of my utter confusion about gut & brain malfunction: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...isease-martin-pall-website.34969/#post-550359

    Later on the same thread I find a BIG clue: that homocysteine surges after meals: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...-martin-pall-website.34969/page-2#post-553080

    Here are my 1,25 dihydroxy vitamin D results, confirming my suspicions about all that D3 I was getting from my B12 oils: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...-bingo-you-guys-were-right.35070/#post-581076

    In this thread, I describe the gut infection from hell and discover my thiamine deficiency: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/mystery-of-the-killer-bs.36269/#post-573333

    I'm currently hanging out on @nandixon's calictriol thread (and poll). @SOC made a really interesting conjecture here: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...nd-calcitriol-levels.37345/page-2#post-593578
     
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  2. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    With methylation supps, my biggest gain has been reduced inflammation (low back pain, diagnosed as arthritis). It disappears entirely when I take as little as 1000 mcg of MeB12 / day.

    My biggest trouble has been increased digestive issues. All along I've been trying to correct the problem of homocysteine-to-methionine conversion, since my symptoms seem to indicate a massive drain down the transsulfuration pathway (nope, I don't have the CBS mutation; I have MTRR and BHMT mutations).
    • Bloating and gut discomfort while eating (I think this is neurological, and my ND agrees.)
    • Grogginess and drugged feeling from eating (I'm in Dorothy's poppy field and I'll never get to Oz. Zzzzzz.)
    • More food intolerances (dairy, thiols, chicken) -- the thiols can trigger neck spasms/migraine/nausea.
    The thiamine deficiency was less severe before the gut infection, but definitely there. I'm taking about 300 mg/day of Benfotiamine and 100 mg of thiamine.

    I've had to cut back progressively on MeB12 and AdB12 as the digestive reactions have zapped my energy. My ND brought up SIBO last week. He sent me home with a test kit.

    A bit of reading brings me to the conclusion that I have had SIBO in the past, and I have it again now. Mainly I'm looking at foods that feed the problem, and remembering that 10 years on the anti-candida diet was only marginally helpful. T3 thyroid hormone was what improved my digestive symptoms -- drastically.

    So it occurred to me that the sugar alcohols in the sublinguals might be part of my problem. I stopped MeB12 for a week (mannitol & sorbitol) and continued AdB12 (xylitol). Result: less bloating. It tended to happen after dinner (I take AdB12 in the afternoon). And of course my low back got progressively more inflamed.

    Now I'm taking the MeB12 (500 mcg) as I climb into bed -- because I won't be eating anything, and it doesn't matter if I get groggy at night. No AdB12 right now.

    So I need to find MeB12 and AdB12 with no sugar alcohols.

    Since I've had signs of glutathione deficiency all along (even on 3 mg of MeB12), I started experimenting with reduced glutathione cream (Kirkman Labs) a month ago. My appetite went up, and I gained a couple pounds right off the bat. Gradually I gained more energy (including brain energy). Better mood, too. I'm out gardening these days, which was really difficult a month ago.

    I struggled through a not-too-difficult translation in Jan.-Feb.-March. Now I think I could whip it off in 1/3 the time.

    Thanks for reading! People who have helped me enormously: the people tagged above, and @Gondwanaland, @ahmo, @alex3619, @aaron_c, @maryb
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2015
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  3. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Congrats on your progress. gardening...:)

    How about transdermal w/o D?
     
    picante likes this.
  4. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    Yes, it's the obvious thing to try, but it's an expensive experiment. $50 + shipping for one bottle. The first experiment was $134 (3 bottles with shipping), and that failed. Funds are low.

    I'm trying this next: http://www.bio-alternatives.net/b12.htm
    Methylcobalamin + water. That's it. If it's not degraded, it should work.
     
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  5. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Dear @picante today I am reading and re-reading everything thru a copper lens...
    Dairy = somehow calcium metabolism needs copper, I haven't read about it yet
    Thiols = chelate copper -- ALTHOUGH if I understood this right, glutathione grabs copper and stores it in the liver
    chicken = too high in zinc, antagonizes copper

    Reading recommendation:
    http://members.tripod.com/~charles_W/copper.html
    http://charles_w.tripod.com/copper3.html
    http://members.tripod.com/~charles_W/copperzinc.html
    http://www.acu-cell.com/crcu.html

    My fresh personal experience:

    Taking 10mg zinc for 2 weeks made me severely copper deficient. DH has been taking 10mg Zn for almost two months and had a scary mental and physical decline, weakness, sleepiness, lack of motivation, IBS-D, hepatitis reactivation, herpes on his chin (he never had herpes before), abdomen pains on the left side (spleen!!) you get the idea.

    In addition, were were taking L-glutamine and B6, which promote RBC and WBC synteshis.

    What happened to me was that I had a severe FM onset, had a blood test and found out anemia (one month ago there was no sign of anemia), extremely low estrogen, low testosterone, blurry vision at sunset, insomnia, severe cognition decline etc etc etc

    When I realized Zn + Glutamine + B6 - Cu = anemia, we immediately started on a low dose mulimin I have at home and we immediately felt better, DH's IBS-D immediately gone! My blurry vision gone and cognitive impairment improved! I am amazed!

    Lesson learned: never take Zn w/o Cu or Cu w/o Zn...

    I must confess that I am taking Zn+Cu in the morning and a tiny bit of Cu just before sunset, and don't have the usual blurry sunset. Could that be the time the body starts hematopoiesis?

    This explains the liver pate, chocolate and nuts cravings...
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2015
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  6. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    Izzy, I clicked on this and it warped my brain just from the layout, :lol:, so I beat a hasty retreat back to acu-cell
    and everything slipped back into place. I love that site!

    Since I'm already supplementing C, chromium, moly, and zinc, I would be surprised if I have low Cu bioavailability, but it's possible (despite daily dark chocolate supplementation) that I have a deficiency because of the zinc supplementation (which I need, to balance the potassium which I need for methylation).

    This is where I most likely have a problem -- I have calcium deficiency symptoms, as you have pointed out. My ionic calcium drops just arrived today, so that's where I'll start: take the Ca with my potassium and B5. And a little nettle tincture. If all goes well, I'll add a little Cu in a few days just to see.

    Thanks :thumbsup: for applying your now-functioning brain to the problem! How are things in Gondwanaland? I've always wanted to go there. ;)
     
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  7. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Interesting, I have been craving starfruit :confused: but definetly can't handle Molyb be it for the uric acid or the low copper
    DH has been refusing sulfur foods (+/+CBS o_O)

    You know, I took warfarin for a while and until now I thought I would only have issues of vit K deveciency, but the FM during this past week made it clear for me that warfarin damaged my copper metabolism/balance :ill:

    Right now I am taking 10mg:450mcg Zn/Cu in the AM and ~50mcg Cu at the sunset. My intention was to keep it until Fri, but I sense (liver) that I will stop sooner :eek:

    The absence of, you mean. :ill: Yes, it is a pity it is so bad. In order to read it I highlight 1-2 lines at a time.
     
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  8. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    From the acu-cell site again -- it doesn't take long:
    http://www.acu-cell.com/crcu.html

    And I sure wouldn't take 3 mg. What you're taking seems more reasonable.

    BTW, have you had a histamine sensitivity lately?:
    http://www.acu-cell.com/crcu.html
     
  9. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Sure, DH and I started sneezing from nothing. DH's sinuses troubles disappeared from taking quercetin lately. But then hesperidin is a Cu antagonizer, I wonder about rutin and quercetin :cautious: I think the antagonization consists in putting Cu to work, and soon one can be depleted!

    Be sure to add silicon to your regimen. It helped me immensely with mind clarity, besides with its interactions with B1 and calcium metabolism.
    http://www.acu-cell.com/gesi.html

    I used to take 50mg 2x weekely. Now I am taking it homeopathically on and off.

    I have always purchased silicon locally, but if would import it, it would be something like this, easy to take tiny amounts:
    http://www.iherb.com/Eidon-Mineral-Supplements-Silica-Liquid-Concentrate-2-oz-60-ml/26014
    Be sure to read a few reviews, the manufacturer has an interesting research section on their website.
     
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  10. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    I've been taking the silica gel (Hübner's -- from horsetail), but I just ran out and it's expensive. I may try some ionic. Most of my minerals are now ionic drops (Good State).
     
  11. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Do you take Boron? Today I tried my multimin with Boron in it (400mcg) and I have definetly had enough from it :depressed:
     
  12. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    Nope, I haven't tried boron yet.
     
  13. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    Adding just 50 mg of calcium increased my potassium deficiency symptoms. I've taken 900 mg of K between 1:00 am and 10:30 am.
     
  14. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    It actually helped me a lot with mental alertness and I was able to take it for 2-3 months, but progressively lowering the dose from 1mg to 400mcg. Right now even 400mcg causes me parathytoid discomfort (left side).
    How much folate are you taking right now?
    I seem to be stuck/locked in there, just like you with your translation :aghhh:
     
  15. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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  16. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    I found horsetail herb, for use as a tea, cheap on ebay.
     
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  17. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I really don't know the difference - silica will be silica - but it is said that horsetail strongly antagonizes thiamine (the nicotine in it) and the preferred herb would be bamboo.
     
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  18. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    It will destroy thiamine in the stomach, so I don't take them at the same time.
     
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  19. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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  20. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    My migraines are not from elevated sodium, since salt helps. I don't have elevated iron. The one-sided headaches are triggered by thiols and rGBH. Not sure what else triggers them. My periods did.

    I'm taking B5 and I'm not tolerating B2 (possibly because I'm lacking the T4 to convert it).
     

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