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Itching from immune activation?

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
Thanks for the response. The toxicologist i saw said the itching after Doxy was most likely an allergic reaction - it only all began with the Doxy so i cant understand how this is just 'one of those things' especially when in the beginning only taking drugs caused it. Yes i have no rash - no liver issues and ige was only just over 100 recently which is not high for me.

Dear Justy,
Being 'one of those things' does not mean there is no explanation, merely that nobody is sure what it is. Itching certainly often occurs after using drugs but the problem is just that in most cases we have no idea why. There is no known immunological process that would explain recurrent or persistent itching without a rash for most cases. I have come across all sorts of weird and wonderful effects of immune reactions over a period of forty odd years but never been convinced that I had understood the nature of an immunological basis of itching without a rash.
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,092
There are a lot of claims all over the internet that antibiotics deplete magnesium. It was so in my experience. With low magnesium one has poor liver function and increased allergies. Magnesium is needed for glutathione conjugation and histamine neutralization (sorry if I don't know the proper biochemical jargon).
 

justy

Donate Advocate Demonstrate
Messages
5,524
Location
U.K
Dear Justy,
Being 'one of those things' does not mean there is no explanation, merely that nobody is sure what it is. Itching certainly often occurs after using drugs but the problem is just that in most cases we have no idea why. There is no known immunological process that would explain recurrent or persistent itching without a rash for most cases. I have come across all sorts of weird and wonderful effects of immune reactions over a period of forty odd years but never been convinced that I had understood the nature of an immunological basis of itching without a rash.
Hi thanks again for responding - have you seen cases of where a drug triggered itching that then took months or more to resolve?
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
@justy Not sure if this will be helpful but wanted to throw it out there just in case! I have no itching or MCAS symptoms yet I tested high for histamine. My doctor said if we were to try to lower the histamine he would recommend Zyrtec, Zantac and down the line other possible things were Chromalyn (not sure of spelling) and Singulair.

He said there are many cytokines related to high histamine without having traditional symptoms like rash or itching. I am paraphrasing from memory and these are not his direct words.

I was wondering if something like Chromalyn (I think the other name for it is Gastrochrome) could help you? I never tried it b/c we went a different route with my treatment. Maybe you could ask KDM or Dr. Edwards if this could help you?

Sorry this is all going on!
 

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
@justy This is the response I get to most pharmaceuticals. For me, it's liver overload. Years ago I went to an acupuncturist for this sort of itching, with good results. Now I use coffee enemas. And yes, I've had the itching last a very long time.
 

liverock

Senior Member
Messages
748
Location
UK
Just wondering if anyone understands anything about what mechanism COULD be going on here.

This COULD be whats going on.

I think the overall itching is probably due to high histamine causing pruritus (skin itching) as its one of the possible symptoms of histamine overload and it doesn't normally leave a rash.


H_917425381f.jpg



It seems there been a lot going on in your gut and high antibiotic use can cause gut dysbiosis and lead to damage to stomach lining villus and possible Coeliac disease (CD), even without symptomatic gluten symptoms.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/809742_1

Coeliac can lead to a few of your other symptoms such as lung problems including asthma.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6101248?dopt=Abstract

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/248523.php

DAO is generated and stored in the gut and is dependent on an adequate supply of copper.

d_f7679a1084.jpg


Fig. 5: Ribbon illustration of Diamine oxidase with copper-ions in both active centers. [http://www.biology.leeds.ac.uk/centres/LIBA/cps/pherson.htm]

Coeliac causes copper deficiency which can cause low DAO and reduced lowering of histamine,
as well as a load of other symptoms.

http://glutenfreeworks.com/blog/201...-deficiency-in-celiac-disease/comment-page-1/

Copper is also required for absorption of iron. Copper deficiency can cause malabsorption of iron,

http://www.traceelements.com/Docs/The Nutritional Relationships of Copper.pdf
]Conditions Associated with Copper Imbalance

One of the earliest conditions found to be associated with copper deficiency is iron deficiency anemia, which could only be corrected with copper supplementation. Copper deficiency impairs iron absorption, reduces heme synthesis, and increases iron accumulation in storage tissues. These processes are dependent upon copper through the effects of the copper enzyme Ceruloplasmin.15 A chronic copper deficiency can result in hemosiderosis, a condition characterized by an increase in iron accumulation in body tissues due to an impairment in the reutilization of hemoglobin iron.

However, it is quite normal to have a low serum iron level when there are high bacterial infections.
Bacteria feeds on iron, so the body sequesters the iron in the spleen,liver and bones to defend itself which causes lower serum iron levels.

I think you might find it worthwhile to get a coeliac test and a copper/ceruloplasmin test from your doctor even if its just to rule out Coeliac. Unfortunately my experience of trying to get a copper test on the NHS was like trying to pull out lion's teeth. Research shows doctors will take on average 12 months of testing everything else,,before agreeing to a copper deficiency test and that's all doctors, not just NHS doctors.
 
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Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
@liverock Does your chart mean that histamine can cause all of those symptoms (dysmenorrhea, nausea, tachycardia, shortness of breath, etc?) I always thought of histamine as causing rash, hives, itching, etc. But maybe that is what my doctor meant that it is behind all kinds of different cytokines and reactions? Sorry if this is a dumb question.
 

liverock

Senior Member
Messages
748
Location
UK
@liverock Does your chart mean that histamine can cause all of those symptoms (dysmenorrhea, nausea, tachycardia, shortness of breath, etc?) I always thought of histamine as causing rash, hives, itching, etc. But maybe that is what my doctor meant that it is behind all kinds of different cytokines and reactions? Sorry if this is a dumb question.

There's no such thing as a dumb question on this forum, maybe a few dumb answers.:)
I must apologise for not putting in the URL link to the webpage where the diagram came from.

http://www.nutridis.at/en/story/histamine-intolerance/

The answer to your question is yes, histamine can cause all those symptoms, and your doctor was right different receptors affect different areas of the body.
Most of the symptoms you mentioned come with the higher levels of histamine overload.
If you want more details of studies on histamine and any particular symptom just google histamine and the symptom.

eg Histamine Tachycardia
https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=histamine-related postural tachycardia syndrome
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
@liverock

There's no such thing as a dumb question on this forum, maybe a few dumb answers.:)

I don't know... I think I can come up with a few dumb questions LOL.

The answer to your question is yes, histamine can cause all those symptoms, and your doctor was right different receptors affect different areas of the body. Most of the symptoms you mentioned come with the higher levels of histamine overload. If you want more details of studies on histamine and any particular symptom just google histamine and the symptom.

Thank you and I did not realize that and I am going to google histamine with different symptoms out of curiosity to see what I get.
 

Mel9

Senior Member
Messages
995
Location
NSW Australia
Just found this old thread.
My arms are so itchy I am scratching holes in my skin.
But discovered that I am probably allergic to the Lime and Patchouli Cleanser I have been using for a few weeks.